WI: Johnny Carson leaves The Tonight Show in 1979

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In 1978 Fred Silverman became the President of NBC and in 1979 wanted Johnny Carson to work more than 3 nights a week. Carson was starting to feel burnt out after hosting the then 90 minute show for the last 17 years. ABC had approached Carson about moving to ABC in mid 1979. Carson said he last signed a contract in 1972 and a California law made him a free agent as of April of 1979. NBC said they had been signing 3 year contracts since then and that Carson was under contract until April 1981. Carson took NBC to court and eventually they settled out of court and Carson signed a new contract and would end up staying there until his retirement in 1992. But what if they didn't settle the case and the court ruled Carson a free agent?

A California court rules that Carson is indeed a free agent and not under contract with NBC. Silverman decides not to appeal the case and let's Carson go after Carson refuses to sign another contract. Carson decides to sign with ABC but NBC won't let him take "The Tonight Show" name or any of the famous characters from the show (Carnac, Aunt Blabby, Art Fern). Carson's last show as host of TTS is on December 21, 1979. Carson new late night show on ABC is to debut Monday, June 2, 1980. Ed McMahon is still under contract with NBC until April 1980 and remains as TTS announcer/sidekick until his final episode on April 4, 1980. He soon signs on to be Carson's announcer/sidekick on his upcoming ABC show.

After cutting the list down to Bob Newhart, Bill Cosby, Rich Little, David Letterman, and John Davidson in February 1980 NBC names Rich Little the next permanent host of The Tonight Show starting in May. At first Fred Silverman wanted Letterman as the permanent host. But other NBC executives convinced Silverman that Letterman was still too unknown and that Carson would kill them in the ratings with Letterman as host. Then Bill Cosby was seen as the front runner as the permanent host. But the executives felt that white America wouldn't choose to watch Bill Cosby over Carson on a nightly basis. NBC approaches Bob Newhart but he makes it clear he is good friends with Johnny and won't take the job. So they settle on Rich Little.

What happens as a result:

-Because Carson moves to ABC in June of 1979 the program that would become "Nightline" does not debut in November of that year. Without the success of Nightline Ted Koppel would end up leaving ABC News in the early 80s, and is hired by a young 24 hour cable news network (CNN) were he becomes a fixture for the next 30 years. Because there is no Nightline Los Angeles Dodgers General Manager Al Campanis never makes his comment about why there is a lack of black managers in baseball in 1987 and he remains Dodgers GM until he retires in 1989.

-Joan Rivers by 1983 becomes the permanent guest host on "The Johnny Carson Show." But like in the OTL she gets an offer to host her own show on the new Fox network in 1986 and she and Carson have a falling out and like in the OTL he never speaks to her again. Rivers' is no longer host of "The Late Show" by the end of 1987 and one of the last hosts of the show is Arsenio Hall who would eventually get his own syndicated late night talk show like in the OTL.

-Bill Cosby appears on both The Tonight Show and The Johnny Carson Show doing his stand up and guest hosting both shows on occasion. One night while guest hosting TTS, NBC Entertainment President Brandon Tartikoff sees Cosby on the show and like in the OTL he green lights "The Cosby Show" and it helps put NBC prime-time back on top into the 1990s.

-After losing Carson to ABC many of the executives at NBC blame Fred Silverman for the big loss of revenue that NBC experiences in 1980. He gives David Letterman a daytime talk show in 1980 which only last for a few months like in the OTL. Silverman not wanting to lose Letterman to syndication or to CBS he signs Letterman to a holding contract. Rich Little's TTS is losing badly to Carson's show and Silverman secretly plans to replace Little with Letterman once Rich Little's contract expires in 1982. But because of the loss of so many NBC affiliates to ABC which because of the loss of Carson to ABC is even worse in this timeline than it was in the OTL, Silverman is forced to resign in 1981. His successors Grant Tinker and Brandon Tartikoff continue on with plans to name Letterman the next host of TTS.

-On Monday May 3, 1982 David Letterman succeeds Rich Little as host of The Tonight Show. But Letterman has conflicts with NBC soon after he is named the host of TTS. Months before his debut as host Letterman wanted to do the show in New York City while NBC wanted to keep the show in Burbank. Letterman agreed to host the show in Burbank, so Paul Shaffer never becomes his band leader. Letterman's TTS is much like his "Late Night" show but because he's on at 11:30 and going head to head with the legendary Carson, NBC micromanages Letterman TTS more than they did his 12:30 Late Night show like in in the OTL. He doesn't have as much freedom to do the quirky and irreverent humor that made his Late Night show so popular. Letterman's TTS is still popular with under 40 crowd mostly his comedy is geared towards the younger viewers and he features many musical acts that don't get invited to perform on the older and more traditional Carson show. One of the many acts to appear on both Carson's show and Letterman's TTS is stand up comic Jay Leno.

-Jay Leno does many guest hosting spots on The Johnny Carson Show in the mid 1980s. ABC wanted to do another late night talk show to air at 12:30 to compete with NBC's Tomorrow show with Tom Snyder (which was not canceled in 1981 since Letterman got TTS instead). Because ABC liked Leno's guest hosting appearances on Carson's show they hired him to host the new 12:30 show. "Late Night with Jay Leno" debuted on ABC in 1986.

-Ever since they first started going head to head in 1982 Carson led Letterman in the ratings by a comfortable margin. But through the 1980s Letterman slowly dwindled that lead. By 1988 Letterman was starting to win some of the ratings war. By 1990 Letterman was now routinely beating Carson in the ratings (who by this time was spending more and more weeks on vacation). Carson was now battling Arsenio for 2nd place most nights. ABC executives were worried about losing Jay Leno to CBS, who at the time was looking to fill the 11:30 timeslot after the cancellation of The Pat Sajak Show. Carson started hearing the rumors that ABC planned to cancel his show and move Leno's show to the 11:30 timeslot. Leno's agent Helen Kushnick was indeed behind the scenes trying to force ABC to cancel Carson's show and move Leno to 11:30. In mid 1990 Carson decided to announce he was retiring in May of 1991. ABC soon announced that Jay Leno's show would move to 11:30 the Monday after Carson's last show. Carson's final year on television was much like his final year in OTL. Many celebrities appeared on his show for the final time and the world wide media did many stories about his retirement.

When ABC and Carson Productions asked NBC to use footage of his years as host of TTS they refused. When Letterman heard about this he appeared on his show that night he scolded his bosses for their decision. The media and fan backlash afterwords towards NBC was huge. NBC quickly reversed their decision and allowed Carson to use footage from his years on TTS on his final ABC show. The final episode of The Johnny Carson Show aired on May 31, 1991. The night before on May 30, Johnny's final guests were Robin Williams and Bette Midler and the show would go just like his second to last show did in the OTL. On his final show Carson gives the same tearful and short speech at the end like he did in the OTL and then walks off the stage as the emotional crowd cheers and the band plays "I'll Be Seeing You." Carson says he'll return to TV when he finds a project he likes, but he never does return full time. In 1993 he is awarded a Kennedy Center Honor, does a guest spot on The Simpsons, and does a monolog on a NBC special honoring Bob Hope. In 1994 he returns to The Tonight Show for the first time since 1979 when he makes a brief cameo on the show to give Dave the Top Ten list. He sits behind the desk for a few seconds while the audience cheers. But Carson never says a word and shakes Dave's hand and walks off stage. Carson never appears on TV again (besides in old footage) and he dies in 2005.

Other TV personalities:
- Tom Snyder leaves the Tomorrow show in 1993 after 20 years on the show and NBC looks for somebody to fill the 12:30 timeslot. NBC first wants to move "Later with Bob Costas" to that timeslot but Costas doesn't want to do an hour show or move to New York. So they decide to turn the show into more of a comedy program. NBC decides to let Letterman's production company develop the new show. Letterman chooses Jon Stewart to host the show and "The Tomorrow Show with Jon Stewart" debuts in September 1993.

-Like in OTL The Arsenio Hall Show is canceled in 1994. But CBS picks up the show for the network and it airs for a few more years until 1998.

-The Chevy Chase Show debuts on Fox in 1993 and is canceled a few weeks later.

-Since Letterman never left NBC in 1993 for CBS and since ITTL NBC chose Letterman's production company (which had no connections to SNL) to develop the 12:30 show and not Lorne Michaels. Former SNL writer Conan O'Brien never gets the chance to audition for the job. He never becomes a late night talk show host but does end up becoming a writer on Jon Stewart's Tomorrow Show.

-Stephen Colbert ends up becoming the host of The Daily Show so there is no Colbert Report.

-ABC does eventually hire Jimmy Kimmel to host a late night talk show at 12:30 after Leno's show in 2003.
 
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After cutting the list down to Bob Newhart, Bill Cosby, Rich Little, David Letterman, and John Davidson in February 1980 NBC names Rich Little the next permanent host of The Tonight Show starting in May... Then Bill Cosby was seen as the front runner as the permanent host. But the executives felt that white America wouldn't choose to watch Bill Cosby over Carson on a nightly basis... So they settle on Rich Little.

Right there, I wondered WI they realized Little was a lost cause, and made the gamble on Cosby? That would have interesting butterflies...
 
Right there, I wondered WI they realized Little was a lost cause, and made the gamble on Cosby? That would have interesting butterflies...

Yep. There probably would have been no Cosby Show in 1984 and there probably would not have been a sitcom boom afterwords. Many people say The Cosby Show saved the TV sitcom. There probably would have been no Roseanne, Seinfeld, Home Improvement, Everybody Loves Raymond among others. There definitely would not have been A Different World. Would Family Ties and Cheers become as popular as they became without Cosby leading off the Thursday night lineup? Without Cheers there would be no Frasier and probably no Friends either.

Roseanne Barr, Jerry Seinfeld, Tim Allen, and Ray Ramono all probably owe part of their success to Bill Cosby as well as Johnny Carson.
 
No Nightline means that my favorite late night comedy show would stay on the air longer. The Show Friday was the best late comedy show. It was even better that SNL. But in OTL, when ABC pick up Nightline, they drop Friday.
 
What a creative idea!

The first suggestion that jumps out at me is, if you're going to have NBC executives reject Cosby on account of being "too black", I think that's all the more reason to butterfly FOX deciding to pick up Arsenio Hall on a permanent basis in 1987 (they kept putting off the decision until it was too late), as a kind of backlash to this sort of thinking. This leaves only CBS without a solid late-night host by the late 1980s. In turn, perhaps they do what ABC did IOTL and decide to have a late-night news program in the vein of Nightline instead. After all, this is the network of 60 Minutes, which achieved phenomenal success in the 1980s and early 1990s IOTL. (Maybe 60 Minutes After Primetime or some other hackneyed title?) It would cement their reputation as the "Old Folks' Network", but their programming choices IOTL did so anyway, after all.
 
If there was no Nightline then how would that affect the US Embassy crisis and by further logic the 1980 Presidential Election. Without the focus on America Held Hostage ### days then how would that affect the perception of US policy regarding Iran, the Carter vs Kennedy fight in the Democratic Primaries or by further extension the actual presidential race?
 
If there was no Nightline then how would that affect the US Embassy crisis and by further logic the 1980 Presidential Election. Without the focus on America Held Hostage ### days then how would that affect the perception of US policy regarding Iran, the Carter vs Kennedy fight in the Democratic Primaries or by further extension the actual presidential race?
Better question IMO is the flipside of that: in the embassy crisis, why wouldn't a network without a late-night talk show do *"Nightline", which got started to do updates? CBS, with a long history of good news coverage (thanks to Murrow), would be the natural place for it.
 
Better question IMO is the flipside of that: in the embassy crisis, why wouldn't a network without a late-night talk show do *"Nightline", which got started to do updates? CBS, with a long history of good news coverage (thanks to Murrow), would be the natural place for it.

And if CBS were to do it who would host it and how would the success of a "Nightline" type show on CBS effect the network's decision on who to replace Cronkite with? If they were to name Dan Rather the host of CBS's "Nightline" in 1979 does that mean Roger Mudd would get the anchor's chair after Cronkite retires in 1981.

Something tells me they probably would have named Roger Mudd or Bob Schieffer the anchor/host of a CBS version of "Nightline." If Mudd were the host does he still interview Ted Kennedy in 1980 which helped to hurt Kennedy's chances of winning the nomination? The Mudd/Kennedy interview aired the same day the Americans were taken hostage in Iran in OTL. Many possibilities.
 
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CCK said:
And if CBS were to do it who would host it and how would the success of a "Nightline" type show on CBS effect the network's decision on who to replace Cronkite with? If they were to name Dan Rather the host of CBS's "Nightline" in 1979 does that mean Roger Mudd would get the anchor's chair after Cronkite retires in 1981.

Something tells me they probably would have named Roger Mudd or Bob Schieffer the anchor/host of a CBS version of "Nightline." If Mudd were the host does he still interview Ted Kennedy in 1980 which helped to hurt Kennedy's chances of winning the nomination? The Mudd/Kennedy interview aired the same day the Americans were taken hostage in Iran in OTL. Many possibilities.
I'm seeing it going to Rather, but that's really a guess. I don't see it affecting the Mudd/Kennedy interview, since *"Nightline" would debut after that.
 
I'm seeing it going to Rather, but that's really a guess. I don't see it affecting the Mudd/Kennedy interview, since *"Nightline" would debut after that.


That's right when I wrote that last night I didn't notice that the Kennedy/Mudd interview was taped before so even if there was no Iran hostage crisis that Kennedy/Mudd interview would have still aired regardless.

It's interesting though if Johnny Carson had gone to ABC how that might of effected CBS's decision on who to replace Walter Cronkite with if they had given Dan Rather a "Nightline" type show.
 
CCK said:
That's right when I wrote that last night I didn't notice that the Kennedy/Mudd interview was taped before
It happens.;)
CCK said:
It's interesting though if Johnny Carson had gone to ABC how that might of effected CBS's decision on who to replace Walter Cronkite with if they had given Dan Rather a "Nightline" type show.
Something else: if Rather's doing *"Nightline" when Cronkite retires, does he take the anchor desk? Or stay on the harder news show? And is this affecting his work on "60 Minutes"?

Does it butterfly his involvement in the cigarette industry debacle?:eek: If it does, does that butterfly "The Insider"?:eek:
 
Yep. There probably would have been no Cosby Show in 1984 and there probably would not have been a sitcom boom afterwords. Many people say The Cosby Show saved the TV sitcom. There probably would have been no Roseanne, Seinfeld, Home Improvement, Everybody Loves Raymond among others. There definitely would not have been A Different World. Would Family Ties and Cheers become as popular as they became without Cosby leading off the Thursday night lineup? Without Cheers there would be no Frasier and probably no Friends either.

Roseanne Barr, Jerry Seinfeld, Tim Allen, and Ray Ramono all probably owe part of their success to Bill Cosby as well as Johnny Carson.

There may not have been a Married..With Children as well. I think that The Cosby Show inspired it in a lot of ways. One of their original working titles was "Not the Cosby's".

If FOX doesn't have Married, what becomes of it? Didn't that Rakolta scandal make MWC more popular, and thus get FOX more viewers?
 
Was thinking earlier about the idea of Cosby doing the Tonight Show starting in 1980, and what kind of effects that itself would have -- not only in how it affects the sitcom, but the late night format, and the pop culture impact of having a beloved black man hosting the staple of American late night television.
 
Was thinking earlier about the idea of Cosby doing the Tonight Show starting in 1980, and what kind of effects that itself would have -- not only in how it affects the sitcom, but the late night format, and the pop culture impact of having a beloved black man hosting the staple of American late night television.

America's Dad would be a great guy to host such a show, and would be a marked contrast to the 1980s War on Drugs rebranding of the drug user from a white hippy or frat boy to that of the criminal black young man.
 
Would Cosby as host influence the popularity of black comics, too? Not to say he'd bias in favor of them, but maybe be a trifle more aware. And with him as host, the audience'd be a trifle more accepting.

So, does that give, say, Chris Rock an early boost?
 
Would Cosby as host influence the popularity of black comics, too? Not to say he'd bias in favor of them, but maybe be a trifle more aware. And with him as host, the audience'd be a trifle more accepting.

So, does that give, say, Chris Rock an early boost?

I don't know. Cosby himself, Flip Wilson, and Redd Foxx were already TV stars by the late 70s. Richard Pryor was already a comedian/movie star by then too. Eddie Murphy I think would've been more of an influence for future black comedians, because he would become a movie star and would be closer to their ages.

Plus I just don't think in the late 70s/early 80s America was yet ready to accept a permanent black host of a nightly network talk show. I mean Bill Cosby had been an established comedian since the early 1960s. He had won Emmys for I Spy and had guest hosted for Carson many times before getting The Cosby Show.But none of the 3 networks or a national syndicate gave Cosby the chance to host his own late night show. They gave Dick Cavett, Tom Snyder, Joey Bishop, Jack Paar, David Letterman and even Alan Thicke chances to host their own late night shows. But not Cosby in the 11 years between the end of The New Bill Cosby Show and the debut of The Cosby Show. Maybe they did offer him late night shows, but Cosby turned them down. Maybe after The New Bill Cosby Show was cancelled he decided to focus on doing movies and the Fat Albert cartoon and turned down other offers. Maybe Cosby didn't want to go up against Johnny Carson (who continued to have him on TTS after Jack Paar left).

But some of the black comics outside of Eddie Murphy (who was already a star by 1982) that started to gain fame in the 80s and early 90s were probably too "blue" for a Cosby late night talk show. Though many of them probably would have cleaned up their acts for Cosby's show like Richard Pryor and George Carlin did when they appeared on Carson's Tonight Show in OTL.

I think Keenan Ivory Wayans, Damon Wayans, Robert Townsend, Arsenio Hall, Sinbad, and later Chris Rock would all have definitely appeared on Cosby's Tonight Show and credit him for giving them their big breaks. But I think it still would have also been where Roseanne Barr, Jerry Seinfeld, Tim Allen, Ellen DeGeneres, Ray Romano, and Drew Carey still got their first big breaks.

I think by the early 90s HBO's Def Comedy Jam probably would have been the launching ground for comedians like Martin Lawrence, Bernie Mac, Chris Tucker, D.L. Hughley, and Dave Chappelle (like in OTL) more than Cosby's TTS.
 
Ok well I have a couple of things I would like to point out about your theory. Why would Carson give Leno Guest host spots if the main reason Leno got asked back on The Tonight Show was because he performed well on David Letterman's Late Night. Why would Jon Stewart even be appointed by David Letterman to host the 12:30 show if he wasn't even a well known performer and he was a comedy writer at the time. And whose to say Conan didn't get into late night. Conan has said himself that he had been wanting to host a late night show since he was a kid because he grew up idolizing Johnny Carson and he said that in his college days at Harvard he would go around advertising his show that he dreamed of having. Also I don't think Stephen Colbert would have gotten The Daily Show because Craig Kilbourne was the host of that show and only left because CBS got him to host The Late Late Show after Tom Snyder left. But in your Alternative timeline Tom Snyder stays with The Tomorrow Show and never goes to CBS, which leaves Craig Kilbourne at The Daily Show because he has no one to replace. And also a big reason why Stephen Colbert got The Colbert Report was because he was a corespondent on The Daily Show and was also mentored by Jon Stewart.
 
"Because there is no Nightline Los Angeles Dodgers General Manager Al Campanis never makes his comment about why there is a lack of black managers in baseball in 1987 and he remains Dodgers GM until he retires in 1989."

Does this mean that the Dodgers don't win the World Series in 1988?
 
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