The Challenge: with a POD no later than 1867, have the CSA win the American Civil War (through any means you want) and no later than 1939, have the CSA and USA be allies. I'm not talking about a superficial alliance; the challenge is to create a legitimate, strong alliance between the two nations, perhaps on par with the current US-UK alliance in terms of strength.
AHC: The Confederacy allied with the USA by 1939
- Thread starter korea
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I've seen a TL where the CSA wins the war and later tries to annex Cuba but it backfires hard and the USA has to bail them out in exchange for the abolition of slavery. Hence the CSA becomes a junior partner of sorts and perhaps they might evolve into a strong alliance over time?
Probably have some threat that is an existential issue for both the Union and the Confederacy and forces them to ally themselves and their relationship gets better over time; the challenge is creating this threat.
I think it might occur if both their relationship with the UK is still strong. Only problem with, if this is a CSA Victory, it most likely would be with the British and French supporting the CSA. Though again, the UK could be key to mending the relationship between the USA and CSA possibly starting by the late 19th century after CSA independence.
That seems relatively unlikely. Britain has too much to loose while France has not enough interest.
I think that you could well have an independent Confederacy that becomes an ally of the North, a sort of client of the larger wealthier neighbour.
There is nothing that unites two countries that hate each other more than a third country that poses a bigger threat. Take France and Britain against Germany, or a more current example, the US and Vietnam against China.
The most obvious choice is WWI. If the CSA joins the war just because of their alliance with the UK, and the US joins because of a similar incident to the Lusitania, you could have both countries on the same side and an alliance could develop between them. Of course, this is assuming US-CSA relations aren't strained by WWI, otherwise you could see something like Turtledove's Southern Victory series, with a Central Powers allied US and an extremist, Nazi-esque CSA.
The most obvious choice is WWI. If the CSA joins the war just because of their alliance with the UK, and the US joins because of a similar incident to the Lusitania, you could have both countries on the same side and an alliance could develop between them. Of course, this is assuming US-CSA relations aren't strained by WWI, otherwise you could see something like Turtledove's Southern Victory series, with a Central Powers allied US and an extremist, Nazi-esque CSA.
People like leaning into Nazi trops with the Confederacy But the South was *by far* the most Anglo-phile part of the US. Hitler might claim them as an inspiration, but they were the most hawkish part. Now where you might see squishiness is the *north*. It has a lot of German-Americans and that is where Democrats paid a steep price both times. If anything, a pro-Allies Confederacy and pro-German US is more likely than converse. But I think good odds they both end up on the same side.
I do think the odds of them allying are pretty high. Similar cultures and US is rapidly going to get a lot of economic influence when peace returns. Realistically, sure USA will be salty for a few decades, but in the long run its going to be more the Confederate population salty at the US than the converse. ATL's equivalents of Huey Long I could see being pretty hostile toward the US with the old establishment types being more US-friendly.
I do think the odds of them allying are pretty high. Similar cultures and US is rapidly going to get a lot of economic influence when peace returns. Realistically, sure USA will be salty for a few decades, but in the long run its going to be more the Confederate population salty at the US than the converse. ATL's equivalents of Huey Long I could see being pretty hostile toward the US with the old establishment types being more US-friendly.
Agree that countries are really hard to make allies without finding clearly common enemy. But I don't believe that TL-191 idea that the countries remain as eternal enemies. Many countries have eventually ovecame their issues and gained better relationships.
And CSA winning the civil war would change history pretty much and even alliances would are different.
I still think you need a common enemy, but I can an additional basis for good relations being something like Confederate soldiers engaging in military activity around Latin America, the Caribbean, and elsewhere in close cooperation with and at the behest of Northern industrial interests. The South gets financial backing for Empire, the North gets the economic benefits of empire while keeping their hands clean if you squint right.
Maybe the USA and CSA get caught up in the world of late 19th/early 20th century Great Power diplomacy.
Post Civil War, the CSA has friendly relations with Britain and France.
While Russia, which was hostile to Britain, maintained good relations with the USA as a counterweight against them.
After the 1890s, when first France and Russia, and then Britain and Russia patched up their differences, the USA and CSA are encouraged to do the same. Germany is seen as the common enemy of everyone.
Trade, economics, cultural ties, etc are pursued with greater frequency and depth, so after a flourishing bromance by 1939 the USA and CSA are close allies.
Post Civil War, the CSA has friendly relations with Britain and France.
While Russia, which was hostile to Britain, maintained good relations with the USA as a counterweight against them.
After the 1890s, when first France and Russia, and then Britain and Russia patched up their differences, the USA and CSA are encouraged to do the same. Germany is seen as the common enemy of everyone.
Trade, economics, cultural ties, etc are pursued with greater frequency and depth, so after a flourishing bromance by 1939 the USA and CSA are close allies.
Maybe a scientific alliance to battle ttl's equivalent of Spanish flu?