You obviously missed or simply did not understand what I said earlier: the decimal system and integration into a greater entity were not unique. What was unique is formation of the military units and military appointments not based upon the tribal principle. This gave the supreme leader both a complete control over all Mongolian forces (instead of being just a leader of a nomadic confederation in which every tribal leader controlled his own troops) and an ability to chose and appoint the commanders based strictly upon their merits and loyalty. It also allowed to convert the existing tribal bands into the regular army with the uniform organization and training (and ability to adopt and incorporate the totally new branches, like engineering/"artillery" troops) which was much more than could be said about most of the opposing forces.
AHQ: Is the Mongol conquest of Eurasia ASB?
- Thread starter MrKrabsWorstNightmare
- Start date
You obviously missed or simply did not understand what I said earlier: the decimal system and integration into a greater entity were not unique. What was unique is formation of the military units and military appointments not based upon the tribal principle. This gave the supreme leader both a complete control over all Mongolian forces (instead of being just a leader of a nomadic confederation in which every tribal leader controlled his own troops) and an ability to chose and appoint the commanders based strictly upon their merits and loyalty. It also allowed to convert the existing tribal bands into the regular army with the uniform organization and training (and ability to adopt and incorporate the totally new branches, like engineering/"artillery" troops) which was much more than could be said about most of the opposing forces.
Garetor
Gone Fishin'
I do wanna say that I don't think controlling the lion's share of the Mongolian Empire over the long term is ASB. However, it would require a series of long lived, very capable rulers with very different qualities. Something like the sequence of Hohenzollerns from Frederick William to Frederick the Great. They don't necessarily need to be great commanders like Subutai, but they need to be able to command the respect of the Mongols and the submission of their underling Khans. Some degree of sinification would probably help here, as the resources of China would be needed to help settle the steppes and assure the stability of the empire long-term.
kholieken
Banned
It depends on writer skills and research. he must explain " a package of innovations in warfare and organization at just the right time" with Mongol military organizations, politics, military capability, logistics and weakness of surrounding empire. If he managed to pull that, (several TL had gone into detailed research before) then it is not ASB. if he just making one sentence of “A bunch of tribes north of China, one of the most advanced and prosperous empires at the time, unifies and creates the largest contigous empire in history” to start debate then its ASB. Explanations why something happen make it plausible.
As always, passionating words of wisdom.
Now, in any other world where that didn't happen, and if you were doing a TL of Western Europe where suddenly Monghols appeared, it would look like a cope out
I'm afraid that you are missing a fundamental problem. To survive in a reasonably long term the Mongolian Empire had to remain a single entity. This was not possible within a traditional system of inheritance which Genghis left in place. Each of his sons got his ulus (area within which he was pretty much an absolute ruler) so it was just a matter of a very short time when tensions between the regional rulers will became stronger than ability of the central power to keep them together. The 1st manifestation was Munke's recognition of Batu as a "senior family member" with a lot of independence for the GH. Batu was still following the "rules" by sending troops to Hulagu at Munke's request but just few years later Berke and Hulagu went into the open war.
Two other factors added to the speedy disintegration:
(a) absence of a clearly defined succession system (Genghis put it as just "elect somebody with the brains") which caused a lot of tensions between various branches of the family and even between the brothers (civil war between Kublai and Ariq Böke ).
(b) China - it was almost impossible to rule effectively all Mongolian Empire from China not just because of the distances but also because ruling China had nothing to do with the Mongolian law: Yasa was strictly for the nomadic people.
Well, China was rather opposite to "steppe", so was (more or less) Khwaresm and the forest tribes lived in taiga.
Conquest of Qara Khitai Empire had been made relatively simple by the rule of Kuchlug, a Naiman usurper who was already beaten on the West by Khwaresm Shah with the loss of Bukhara and Samarkand, managed to alienate the local Muslims and was seemingly fond of looting his own subjects. When the Mongols invaded he had no option but to try to flee.
Khwaresm was a much bigger target but it was a state in a process of formation with no real connection between its parts (some of which were conquered just few years prior to the invasion) and an army which consisted of the tribal militias of a questionable loyalties to the Shah and no excessive love between various ethnic groups. Which allowed conquest piece by piece with some areas doing a timely homage and avoiding the usual treatment.
It also collapsed even faster and harder then the Mongol Empire.
Garetor
Gone Fishin'
Yeah, I said it poorly , but the reason why I thought it would need to be ruled from China is the necessity of the silk road. Long term, the only way to keep the steppe together is to settle it more densely, and this means a thicker carpet of towns, farms, and organized ranches along the silk road. Control that, and you can project force across Eurasia, allowing you to recover areas that inevitably split off.
Probably cannot be done peacefully or without losing some peripheral territories. But with the right deaths and a mediocre generation (IE, fairly unimpressive lessee khans dominated by a superlative great khan/yuan emperor), I think a "super yuan" is possible.
Probably cannot be done peacefully or without losing some peripheral territories. But with the right deaths and a mediocre generation (IE, fairly unimpressive lessee khans dominated by a superlative great khan/yuan emperor), I think a "super yuan" is possible.
I'd say that if the Mongol conquests never happened and someone made a TL where they did happen, people would decry it as ASB and a major Khalka-wank. It wouldn't necessarily be, if the author described in detail Temujin's rise and why he was able to implement the reforms he did, but it would at the very least be a wank.
That's because Timur's state was too much person-oriented and AFAIK too much about looting and too little about proper administration.
I mean, it happened, so by definition it was plausible, but IMO - I think there are a lot on the more deterministic side of the forum that would certainly call it ASB in an ATL. Probably going "China OR Persia, not both" "Wait, you want them to take Russia too? ASB".
Basically it comes down to an analysis of how readily people treat "Massive unexpected upset". Personally I think that the Mongol rise is a perfect example of Third Party Syndrome - basically a Third Party emerges seemingly out of nowhere to upset the balance in the area.
This also applies to the Arabs, to the Spanish in Mexico, and the Scandinavians in the Viking Period.
Basically it comes down to an analysis of how readily people treat "Massive unexpected upset". Personally I think that the Mongol rise is a perfect example of Third Party Syndrome - basically a Third Party emerges seemingly out of nowhere to upset the balance in the area.
This also applies to the Arabs, to the Spanish in Mexico, and the Scandinavians in the Viking Period.
The Silk Road was, of course, an unifying factor and it did not even require a much greater density of the population (especially in the middle of the big and nasty deserts) but it did require a strong central government across the whole empire. The 1st pre-requisite would be breaking with a traditional system of splitting inheritance (which Genghis left in place). With only the Great Khan having all power and his relatives being just decorative court figures (rich and honored but without a military or administrative power of their own pretty much like the princes of blood in France of Louis XIV - XVI or the Grand Dukes in the Russian Empire) AND there are clearly defined rules of succession to avoid the regular political turmoils the system would be much more stable.
However, China would remain a serious long-term problem by a number of reasons. To start with, the Chinese would not adopt to any other culture and it would be rather difficult for others to "go Chinese" not just because of the radical cultural and religious differences but because even the subdued Chinese were considered everybody else as the foreign barbarians (as was the case with the Jurchens, Mongols and Manchu). And, of course, just due to a sheer size of a territory and population administration of China would require a huge effort, probably much greater than one needed for the rest of the whole empire. Which more or less inevitably means that the Mongolian rulers of China would be gradually switching to the Chinese culture and military system and this could create a problem of its own both on a local and imperial level. Not that this could not be handled (the Manchu managed to do this even if not very well and without being distracted by ruling extensive territories outside China) but it would require a lot of administrative, political and military skills.
On a positive note (
), in the case of the unified empire some analogies could be made with the Russian Empire. It also was rather "one-sided" geographically but managed to grab and rule the wast territories populated by the people with different cultures and religions. So why not some reversed analogy with the center being on the East instead of West? After all the Russian, Georgian, etc. territories of the Mongolian Empire had the vassal status and did not require a direct rule and OTL China ruled (and still rules) some Muslim territories.Pretty much. Timur lead his empire headlong into its own destruction.
Marc
Donor
One way is to have Güyük Khan not die in 1248 after two years in power. A plausible scenario can be constructed that has the Mongols taking southeast Europe by say the 1260's. From there, anything is possible. And for those who say that the Mongol cavalry would be handicapped, you all underestimate the diversity and resourcefulness of the Mongols at their peak.
Garetor
Gone Fishin'
TBH, I don't think taking Europe would help the Mongols. They already have the territory just from their original conquests to dominate the world. I mean, my god, can you imagine an industrial, unified country with China, Siberia, Persia, and Mesopotamia? The world would turn on that axis.
If I were going to add anything, it would be India, just to completely control the south asian trade sphere. What they REALLY need, though, is an administrative structure that lets the Khan in Khanbaliq have control over territorial administration, without taking on so much that the local magnates revolt against mongol oppression.
If I were going to add anything, it would be India, just to completely control the south asian trade sphere. What they REALLY need, though, is an administrative structure that lets the Khan in Khanbaliq have control over territorial administration, without taking on so much that the local magnates revolt against mongol oppression.
With Güyük living longer? Highly unlikely. He (and the princes which belonged to his party) tried to abandon the OTL expedition after conquest of the Central Rus and, taking into an account his relations with Batu, anything like the OTL Western Campaign would be impossible even if he managed to kill Batu (instead of dying at a very convenient time). At best (for him) it would be a need to put situation in the GH under control (with a lot of executions) and in more realistic case there would be a war between him and his supporters and the descendants of Jochi and Tolui.
The much better option would be Batu succeeding Ogedei and living longer than in OTL: it seems that out of his generation he was the most capable politician and statesman with a possible exception of Kublai who was at that time too young. Unfortunately, this was not possible because acting regent, Ogedei's widow Töregene, was too well entrenched in power.
Marc
Donor
I suppose I was speculating on a flip in deaths: Batu dying instead of Güyük. Given how easily death comes to us all, not an impossible riff. One that would conceivably enable the construct of a Mongol conquest of much of Europe - the original query.