The eagle's left head

[Nuraghe]

I just want to point out, you sent a guy named Gryphon to Genoa.
either you did not realized or you did but thank for the meme.

it could always have been worse, maybe Syracuse would send a Sampdoriano, to negotiate with the Doge, as long as they don't go to De Ferraris 😂🤣

 

[galileo-034]

Genoa CFC - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Oooooh...

 

[pls don't ban me]

it could always have been worse, maybe Syracuse would send a Sampdoriano, to negotiate with the Doge, as long as they don't go to De Ferraris 😂🤣

Oooooh...

Well it leave all of the Aegean and the Candia enclave at the mercy of the Sicilians. I don't know if it would be prudent to trust a foreign power that much even if until now you are good allies.

Genoa CFC - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

ok, first of all i am a Genoa fan so fuck yeah, happy to see my team quoted.
second, the Griffin is also the symbol of the City itself. usually the full combo is the saint george flag kept high by two rampant griffins :

third: Sampdoria is not a Genoese team. they stay in Bogliasco which is outside the city 🤣

 

[Lascaris]

@Lascaris Why not some kind of direct assault on Cyprus with a small force to force Peter out of the war?If their defense falls apart, you get Cyprus. If it doesn’t, it would create pressure for Peter to leave. I think his will and means to fight the war is declining. If he gets offered to be shipped back, would he keep fighting?

Peter? Possibly. For an apparently capable man he was also stubborn and given how he ended up dead not really sensible. Why he can shrug off a small invasion?

Hmm with Anges leading the regency and with Adrienne the elder being fine with things I think we'd see a stable regency happen and have them continue fighting the Venetians for now, especially since the regency has the subvertio generalis to play with. I think you could've forced them together using the belligerence of the Serene republic, but this works quite well too.

The regency does start well and Agnes is a capable woman. Now Alexandros II was also quite capable but this did not quite end up well for him...

As Joanna leaves for her French possessions and the Hungarian Charles of Gravina (prob should be Charles IV due to Charles III dying early in otl) takes the throne, I do think that he'll probably lay off conquering the lands he lost to the Despotate and attempt to rebuild from the anarchy Naples went through. I'm not sure how successful it will though. He'd prob not have a lot of recourse as ppl would see him in a bad light, but on the other hand I think the people would just want some peace after the anarchy.

That's right you had one more Charles in the meantime TTL.

I hope we see a weird marriage for Joanna at this point. Despite having a few spouses she never had a child, and a bunch of Aragonese nobles beyond the king claiming to be the rightful claimant of the throne of Naples would be a cool thing to see.

And I'm not quite certain why she didn't. Apparently at least two died in infancy/ were stillborn.

This time, I suppose he might want to capture the island of Euboea in a prelude to the new siege, to completely surround Negroponte.
Last time, the reasoning was that the capture of Chalk is would lead to that of the whole of Euboea, but since it did not quite work the first time, it might be worth revisiting that reasoning this time around.

The idea is systematically dealing with the Venetian possessions and since you have a big hammer in the army you can mobilize from the Greek holdings use it. After all Alexandros II could be said to have tried to hit too many targets at once with his simultaneous attacks on Methone, Euboea and Crete.

The galleys are heavy because Joanna took with her the remaining silverware ?

And the silks and anything of value that can be loaded...

Joanna is still the countess of Provence, a not insignificant principality. The link between Provence and Naples is severed and Naples becomes even weaker. With Joanna in Provence, the chances of Otto von Brunswick-Grubenhagen are better than if she had stayed in Naples. If things go as in OTL, Otto will have a lot of influence in Montferrat and almost become the power behind the throne. In that case he will be a valuable ally for Joanna since Montferrat is bordering the last angevin holdings in southern Piedmont.

Husband number 4? Logic would expect Joanna to concentrate of Provence...

I would expect Camponeschi to form a close relationship with Hungary and/or Sicily to sustain his autonomy from Naples. He could play the loyal bannerman to Louis, "I know you put Gravina on the throne but my loyalty stands with you, the true king" and the useful ally to the Regents in Syracuse. I think it is plausible to seek a royal marriage for his heir, to be seen as a true ruler of Abruzzo.

The regents are somewhat tied up at the moment. Now an obvious question is how capable you think Charles to have been...

On top of everything, Charles will have to deal with the Free Companies as well. Those brigands went after the weaker states and Naples in its current state of demographic collapse and decentralization is the most inviting target. Most of these Free Companies would have been ex-employees of Charles. He got the throne now and Louis won't be paying the salaries of thousands of mercenaries.

Louis has not been paying for some time. At the state Joanna was, Italian revenues were sufficient to deal with her. Of course this also meant the war took years more than it would have had otherwise but why that should had been a concern of Louis?

Rome is in danger as well, worse than Avignon in the previous years. The brigand pestilence lasted a decade in France and caused a lot of damage. If anything, Charles IV is in a weaker position than the French.

Well Calabria, or rather the expanded Lascarid south Italy is also in danger. Although the Sicilians can throw into the field something in the order of 10,000 men from pronoias if pissed off sufficiently.

Is the OTL Sanjak of Delvina included in Lascarid Epiros? What is its population?

Around 110,000 post plague seems about right.

So, the Sicilian fleet was 22 galleys before the taxes were voted in. It is fair to assume that the Sicilians won't have spent all their coin on mercenaries since they have reserves of naval manpower. I would bet that the Apulians will be alarmed so they have an even greater motive to man and arm their galleys. So, the summer 1368 fleet will be 33 galleys plus the reserves.

The Sicilian fleet in total was closer to 47 galleys in 1367. Split between the Adriatic and the Aegean though.

And 10,000 men is a big army. And he knows there is a venetian fleet in the Aegean, so he would be expecting some relief operation. With so many men, he doesn't need a fleet of his own to capture the city. He can built fortifications and blockade access to the city. The north channel is 300m wide beyond the city's walls. The southern channel where there is a modern bridge, it is 185m wide. If he builds earthworks to protect his men, catapults and crossbowmen on both sides can stop cold a galley fleet. Now he has enough men for such approach.

It's not as bad as it would had been a century or two later but catapults can easily cover both sides of the strait. Put enough and a 14th century galley is not a Hellenistic polyreme to be built for siege warfare...

At this point, the Karamanids would have attacked Corycos on the cilician shore and with basically all the army and ships of Cyprus away, they would have captured it. That would be a major prestige blow to Peter. The garrison of Antalya will have mutinied as well and the Venetians might have picked up the tab and paid his garrison there. So, while the infidels are taking his outpost and showing that he cannot protect his subjects, he is forced to be effectively a mercenary captain fighting side by side with infidels.

If it is the same Peter as in OTL, then he is a proud and ambitious man.

Who ended up dead for serially having affairs with the wives of his subordinates... among other things.

Great and unique timeline!! Any chance of a map?

Thanks a lot!

i mean, Genoa is really what could tip the balance.
if a treaty could me made…

Historically speaking, Genoa ( while sometimes doing ever worse stuff than Venice like the exploit of Trebisonda empire) is more open to compromise.
maybe an agreement regarding Crete could be made, like giving them access to Candia like Galata.

The dynasty and the ruling circle around it have seen what happens when you give Genoa and Venice trade privileges or worse things like Galata. Its policy is no different than the Ottoman one on the matter...

 

[Chernabog90]

You know it would be hilarious if the mob of Constantinople decided that Ioannis time to rule is over and decided to cut a deal with the laskaris with them being allowed to become emperor again for their support agains the ottoman

 

[Xenophonte]

Well it leave all of the Aegean and the Candia enclave at the mercy of the Sicilians. I don't know if it would be prudent to trust a foreign power that much even if until now you are good allies.

I think that that Genoa opted for a wait and see tactic and to let that both Sicilians and Venetians fight until that either one of them would triumph or even better that both of them would exhaust and get locked in an impasse, unlikely as it would be...
But, anyway, even an Aegean/Crete controlled by a somewhat friendly power open to fair trade would likely trump the one Venetian controlled...

 

[Avrorrange]

Peter? Possibly. For an apparently capable man he was also stubborn and given how he ended up dead not really sensible. Why he can shrug off a small invasion?

The regency does start well and Agnes is a capable woman. Now Alexandros II was also quite capable but this did not quite end up well for him...

That's right you had one more Charles in the meantime TTL.

And I'm not quite certain why she didn't. Apparently at least two died in infancy/ were stillborn.

The idea is systematically dealing with the Venetian possessions and since you have a big hammer in the army you can mobilize from the Greek holdings use it. After all Alexandros II could be said to have tried to hit too many targets at once with his simultaneous attacks on Methone, Euboea and Crete.

And the silks and anything of value that can be loaded...

Husband number 4? Logic would expect Joanna to concentrate of Provence...

The regents are somewhat tied up at the moment. Now an obvious question is how capable you think Charles to have been...

Louis has not been paying for some time. At the state Joanna was, Italian revenues were sufficient to deal with her. Of course this also meant the war took years more than it would have had otherwise but why that should had been a concern of Louis?

Well Calabria, or rather the expanded Lascarid south Italy is also in danger. Although the Sicilians can throw into the field something in the order of 10,000 men from pronoias if pissed off sufficiently.

Around 110,000 post plague seems about right.

The Sicilian fleet in total was closer to 47 galleys in 1367. Split between the Adriatic and the Aegean though.

It's not as bad as it would had been a century or two later but catapults can easily cover both sides of the strait. Put enough and a 14th century galley is not a Hellenistic polyreme to be built for siege warfare...

Who ended up dead for serially having affairs with the wives of his subordinates... among other things.

Thanks a lot!


The dynasty and the ruling circle around it have seen what happens when you give Genoa and Venice trade privileges or worse things like Galata. Its policy is no different than the Ottoman one on the matter...

If you loot Cyprus enough, it’s probably not something you can just shrug off, nor something you can counter with fortifications.He’s badly haemorrhaging money at the moment, and the campaign has been anything but profitable so far. Now assuming if you don’t loot it and the landing of the small invasion force actually led to Greek peasants rising up, then GG.

 

[Nuraghe]

ok, first of all i am a Genoa fan so fuck yeah, happy to see my team quoted.
second, the Griffin is also the symbol of the City itself. usually the full combo is the saint george flag kept high by two rampant griffins :

third: Sampdoria is not a Genoese team. they stay in Bogliasco which is outside the city 🤣

I hope you can forgive me, but I hope you don't win today, since honestly we " Shepherds " would really need those points for salvation ( it's literally the regional equivalent of the Azzurri, together with Dinamo Sassari, so it's impossible for me not to support them ) , even a draw would be fine, I would have preferred to score 3 points last Sunday, but the Rubentus had to as usual..... well you know 😅😂 or maybe we wanted to be all, kind to old ladies 😜

 

[X Oristos]

And I'm not quite certain why she didn't. Apparently at least two died in infancy/ were stillborn.

She got pregnant again by James of Majorca but she miscarried and after that she didn't manage to get pregnant again.

Now that we are in 1368, more years have passed from OTL 1362, so James' mental instability would have been more pronounced. That is if he didn't get captured by Enrique of Trastamara as per OTL. We know that his mental instability was not simply propaganda by Joanna because the archibishop of Naples corroborated the story in his correspondence with Avignon.

I think that that Genoa opted for a wait and see tactic and to let that both Sicilians and Venetians fight until that either one of them would triumph or even better that both of them would exhaust and get locked in an impasse, unlikely as it would be...

Speaking of trade, Ragusa is basically free now - hungarian overlordship was distant and benign. In contrast to OTL 1357, Venice is pinned down in a major war and cannot afford to make an enemy out of Ragusa. I would expect the Ragusans to totaly dominate the precious metal trade coming from Bosnia and Serbia and start earlier to enroach the adriatic markets. Moreover, if they attack Ragusa the Venetians might bring Louis back in the war. So they can only watch their former subjects becoming a minor rival.

Now an obvious question is how capable you think Charles to have been...

Before commenting on how capable Charles was, let's talk about what Naples needs. Naples has seen 30 YW levels of devastation. 17th century Brandenburg is a decent analogy. Brandenburg suffered a population reduction of approximately 50% with different regions or cities experiencing a demographic impact of different magnitude with 20 to 90% population reduction. However, the basically 20 Year War between the two angevin branches followed the most devastating epidemic since Justinian. I would bet that the actual impact is higher than 50%, rather closer to 60%. In Brandenburg a 50% population contraction led to losing 2/3 of the pre-war income. Here it will be closer to 75%.

So what does Naples need to somewhat recover within a generation? An equivalent to the Great Elector. And Charles is not a statesman of that calibre, not by a long shot. The man was too optimistic and ambitious for his own good. He attempted to get the hungarian throne without stabilizing the Regno first. He chose to enter Buda peacefuly without an army, trusting the magnates that invited him but without an army he couldn't protect himself.

Then there is the issue of Louis' succession. In OTL when he had his daughters he forgot all about his renunciation of the neapolitan throne. If he has a son, it is more than plausible that he will push for his rights on all angevin domains. If he has a daughter he might seek a french match as in OTL. Overall, as soon as he has a child, he won't care a lot about Charles IV.

Well Calabria, or rather the expanded Lascarid south Italy is also in danger. Although the Sicilians can throw into the field something in the order of 10,000 men from pronoias if pissed off sufficiently.

The Free Companies used to go after soft targets. The most centralized realm in Europe is not one of them. Charles' weakness will attract those brigands though. Abruzzo is in danger as well. If Naples cannot help Lalle II, then Abruzzo will drift further away.

 

[Nuraghe]

She got pregnant again by James of Majorca but she miscarried and after that she didn't manage to get pregnant again.

Now that we are in 1368, more years have passed from OTL 1362, so James' mental instability would have been more pronounced. That is if he didn't get captured by Enrique of Trastamara as per OTL. We know that his mental instability was not simply propaganda by Joanna because the archibishop of Naples corroborated the story in his correspondence with Avignon.


Speaking of trade, Ragusa is basically free now - hungarian overlordship was distant and benign. In contrast to OTL 1357, Venice is pinned down in a major war and cannot afford to make an enemy out of Ragusa. I would expect the Ragusans to totaly dominate the precious metal trade coming from Bosnia and Serbia and start earlier to enroach the adriatic markets. Moreover, if they attack Ragusa the Venetians might bring Louis back in the war. So they can only watch their former subjects becoming a minor rival.


Before commenting on how capable Charles was, let's talk about what Naples needs. Naples has seen 30 YW levels of devastation. 17th century Brandenburg is a decent analogy. Brandenburg suffered a population reduction of approximately 50% with different regions or cities experiencing a demographic impact of different magnitude with 20 to 90% population reduction. However, the basically 20 Year War between the two angevin branches followed the most devastating epidemic since Justinian. I would bet that the actual impact is higher than 50%, rather closer to 60%. In Brandenburg a 50% population contraction led to losing 2/3 of the pre-war income. Here it will be closer to 75%.

So what does Naples need to somewhat recover within a generation? An equivalent to the Great Elector. And Charles is not a statesman of that calibre, not by a long shot. The man was too optimistic and ambitious for his own good. He attempted to get the hungarian throne without stabilizing the Regno first. He chose to enter Buda peacefuly without an army, trusting the magnates that invited him but without an army he couldn't protect himself.

Then there is the issue of Louis' succession. In OTL when he had his daughters he forgot all about his renunciation of the neapolitan throne. If he has a son, it is more than plausible that he will push for his rights on all angevin domains. If he has a daughter he might seek a french match as in OTL. Overall, as soon as he has a child, he won't care a lot about Charles IV.


The Free Companies used to go after soft targets. The most centralized realm in Europe is not one of them. Charles' weakness will attract those brigands though. Abruzzo is in danger as well. If Naples cannot help Lalle II, then Abruzzo will drift further away.

in reality, to aggravate the Neapolitan situation, there is also Giovanni di Vico, who for 30 years devastated the regions of Lazio, Umbria and Tuscany, now in Otl he was stopped by the campaigns of Cardinal Albernoz , but in TL the continuous weakness of the papal state and of what remains of the Angevin kingdom, perhaps allow him to continue his activities and try to build a fiefdom in the Viterbo area for his son, considering he is an ally of the Viscontis I can see the latter continuing to support him, also because he would be the prefect of Rome, therefore technically the main representative of the "popular will", he is, together with the Colonna, among the main opponents of the Avignon Papacy ( even if it is right to remember that none of the Roman Ghibellines were hostile to the papal office itself, rather to the pontiffs who resided and governed from France, making them, in the eyes of most, Parisian puppets, in short, the same old story, certainly that I am faithful to the Holy Father, as long as he was my creature )

 

[Whiteshore]

You know it would be hilarious if the mob of Constantinople decided that Ioannis time to rule is over and decided to cut a deal with the laskaris with them being allowed to become emperor again for their support agains the ottoman

There would not be a more appropriate end to the Palaiologoi usurpation than that.

 

[pls don't ban me]

I hope you can forgive me, but I hope you don't win today, since honestly we " Shepherds " would really need those points for salvation ( it's literally the regional equivalent of the Azzurri, together with Dinamo Sassari, so it's impossible for me not to support them ) , even a draw would be fine, I would have preferred to score 3 points last Sunday, but the Rubentus had to as usual..... well you know 😅😂 or maybe we wanted to be all, kind to old ladies 😜

i honestly prefer if Verona and Sassuolo go down. I like Ranieri and Pavogol

 

[Beaufortq]

Really liking the story and writing so far, thanks for posting it!

I'm curious about the Hohenstaufen* (not Hohenzollern, thx for correcting) descent of the dynasty. Will it become relevant again and they meddle in Northern Italy and the HRE at some point or has the capture of Sicily fulfilled the entire purpose of the heritage?

Since they haven't involved themselves in the Guelph/Ghibelline rivalry so far I'm guessing the HRE imperial roots are irrelevant to them by now compared to the ERE imperial roots and the focus will be on restoring the ERE?

Otherwise a second son or so trying to capture Swabia in a HRE civil war as the heirs of Hohenzollern could be funny in the future (but likely very unrealistic).

 

[pls don't ban me]

Really liking the story and writing so far, thanks for posting it!

I'm curious about the Hohenzollern descent of the dynasty. Will it become relevant again and they meddle in Northern Italy and the HRE at some point or has the capture of Sicily fulfilled the entire purpose of the heritage?

Since they haven't involved themselves in the Guelph/Ghibelline rivalry so far I'm guessing the HRE imperial roots are irrelevant to them by now compared to the ERE imperial roots and the focus will be on restoring the ERE?

Otherwise a second son or so trying to capture Swabia in a HRE civil war as the heirs of Hohenzollern could be funny in the future (but likely very unrealistic).

i think you meant the Hohenstaufen.
the Hohenzollern are still irrelevant to the big picture. if i'm not mistaken in OTL they are "soon" to be granted Brandenburg

 

[Beaufortq]

i think you meant the Hohenstaufen.
the Hohenzollern are still irrelevant to the big picture. if i'm not mistaken in OTL they are "soon" to be granted Brandenburg

Yeah meant them, probably played too much EUIV recently.

 

[pls don't ban me]

Yeah meant them, probably played too much EUIV recently.

technically they are extinct.

we have some families claiming lineage to them like the Vataztes/laskaris and the aragonese fellas

 

[Beaufortq]

technically they are extinct.

we have some families claiming lineage to them like the Vataztes/laskaris and the aragonese fellas

Yes and that lineage effected the conquest of Sicily but not much afterwards, so I'm curious if it's no longer important due to the passing of time to TTL present date or if the Vatatzes/Lascarids try to use it again at some point.

 

[pls don't ban me]

Yes and that lineage effected the conquest of Sicily but not much afterwards, so I'm curious if it's no longer important due to the passing of time to TTL present date or if the Vatatzes/Lascarids try to use it again at some point.

from how i view it personally, no.
let me explain.
the guys in command of Sicily and half southern Italy are Greeks of Orthodox religion. for them there is only one true authority. the Roman one of Constantinople.
The pope is a heretic. That said, it's not like they initially did not cooperate. but being excommunicated so many times that it becomes routine like the weather on channel 1 at 7 am makes you think " you know, what should i be a catholic and respect the latin view when the orthodox side does not treat me like a piece of shit every 5 seconds".
i think that the only Latins that a Sicilian even remotely respects just a bit are the Genoese.
Maybe when the conquest of southern Italy is done and an opportunity to conquer Rome presents itself, they can boast their lineage as way to say " i am the TRUE emperor. if that's not enough i am also a descendant of you best Emperor after Charle Magne. does any body else have a better claim?"

@Lascaris can i ask you something? what is the full name of the ruling dynasty on Sicily ? i would like to avoid mistakes

 

[X Oristos]

@Lascaris can i ask you something? what is the full name of the ruling dynasty on Sicily ? i would like to avoid mistakes

I think it is Doukas Vatatzes Lascaris. One reason I don't want Adrianne's husband to get the throne is that a Doukas Vatatzes Griffon Maniakes Lascaris dynasty is quite the mouthful.

 

[pls don't ban me]

I think it is Doukas Vatatzes Lascaris. One reason I don't want Adrianne's husband to get the throne is that a Doukas Vatatzes Griffon Maniakes Lascaris dynasty is quite the mouthful.

to be honest to have griffon in the name doesn't sound bad to me 🤣🤣

also i guess you've never seen the full name of Boris III of Bulgaria:

Boris Klemens Robert Maria Pius Ludwig Stanislaus Xaver of house Saxe-Coburg and Gotha-Koháry