A Second American Civil War in the 1930s

cex

Banned
1932: The Democrats nominate an uber-conservative(Ritchie?) who proceeds to combat the Great Depression using spending cuts and tax hikes. Needless to say, this is a disaster and the midterms are a bloodbath.
1936: Yet, similarly to Hoover, Ritchie is re-nominated through patronage and a splintered opposition. The Republicans also nominate the conservative bridges. As a result, a unified Progressive Party under Huey Long and Upton Sinclair is created and wins the election against two discredited opponents.
1937: The Business Plot gets underway a leftist President and Long is overthrown and killed. Sinclair flees and declares himself President, as opposed to George Van Horn Moseley in the White House. With two rival self-declared Presidents...Second American Civil War?
 

Garrison

Donor
Didn't we do this about a fortnight ago? And I think the consensus was that you would have to go back a lot further than the 1930s to have a POD that would lead to a second American Civil War. And of course the Business Plot was never remotely a serious thing, indeed the evidence for it actually existing is a bit thin, unless there's new material on the subject?
 

cex

Banned
Didn't we do this about a fortnight ago? And I think the consensus was that you would have to go back a lot further than the 1930s to have a POD that would lead to a second American Civil War. And of course the Business Plot was never remotely a serious thing, indeed the evidence for it actually existing is a bit thin, unless there's new material on the subject?
With both parties wholly discredited, the Great Depression continuing until 1937 and an openly left-wing(maybe even a Socialist like Norman Thomas!) President elected, assuming that there will be political violence in the streets from starving people isn't exactly a stretch.

A post some years back as to how such a scenario could have come about:

The Democrats nominate a conservative in 1932--or they get one through FDR being killed. In 1936, the conservative Democrat (maybe Garner) manages to get re-nominated through his control of the party machinery, but a large left-wing contingent leaves the Democrats. So there is a four-way race in 1936:

(1) The Democratic Party--rather conservative, for states rights, a low tariff, some antitrust, maybe some limited intervention to help farmers. About all it has to offer labor is restrictions on labor injunctions by the federal courts. Its big strength is in the Solid South, also with traditional Democrats in other parts of the country.

(2) The Republican Party--conservative, business-oriented, though with a mildly "progressive" minority who stay with the party partly from inertia, partly because they view the party as the symbol of respectability--they associate the Democrats with the South and unsavory urban machines (and fear the Farmer Labor Party as too radical).

(3) Farmer-Labor Party--This idea was "in the air", and there were state Farmer-Labor parties in Minnesota and elsewhere. What prevented the idea from succeeding nationally was that most of its potential supporters were co-opted by the New Deal--which doesn't happen in this TL. Supporters of the new party would include trade unionists, dissatisfied farmers, liberal intellectuals, socialists, and the Communist Party in its Popular Front stage. (If the national FLP were formed anytime between 1929 and 1934, the Communists would at first denounce it as "social fascist" until the 1935 Comintern congress would set them straight.) If the conservatives retained control of the Democratic Party in 1936, there could be a mass exodus of "progressive" Democrats to the new party.

The future of the Farmer-Labor Party would be uncertain of course--especially after 1939 and the Hitler-Stalin pact, the issue of Stalinist influence within such a party would be explosive, and there would be battles between Stalinists and anti-Stalinists in the party, similar to those which took place in OTL in the Minnesota Farmer Labor Party and New York's American Labor Party.

(4) A Social Justice party--anti-Marxist, anti-liberal, isolationist, populistic. Blames "international bankers" for the Depression. Called "fascist" by its opponents, but it denies it has anything in common with "foreign isms." Led by Huey Long (in this TL his assassination is butterflied away) and supported by Father Coughlin, Townsend, etc.
 
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Garrison

Donor
With both parties wholly discredited, the Great Depression continuing until 1937 and an openly left-wing(maybe even a Socialist like Norman Thomas!) President elected, assuming that there will be political violence in the streets from starving people isn't exactly a stretch.
But there's a marked difference between political violence and a civil war, you are also insisting on both parties being totally tone deaf and that a group advocating the overthrown of the government would actually gain traction. I cannot see the US Army supporting such a plan for one thing and it would be one of the few things that would unite politicians across the political divide. The most likely outcome of anyone trying to launch something akin to the Business Plot, assuming it was ever anything more than fantasizing among a few rich white men after a couple of brandies, is the culprits facing sedition charges.
 

cex

Banned
But there's a marked difference between political violence and a civil war, you are also insisting on both parties being totally tone deaf and that a group advocating the overthrown of the government would actually gain traction.
Had FDR lost the 1928 NY election, a Dixiecrat like Byrd or Ritchie could have been elected and proved to be even worse than Hoover.
I cannot see the US Army supporting such a plan for one thing and it would be one of the few things that would unite politicians across the political divide.
The most likely outcome of anyone trying to launch something akin to the Business Plot, assuming it was ever anything more than fantasizing among a few rich white men after a couple of brandies, is the culprits facing sedition charges.
Once Long is killed, it's hard to see a radical like VP Sinclair garnering much loyalty or sympathy from...pretty much anyone but the hardcore left-wing. Populist movements like Long's are entirely dependent on their leaders, not their acolytes.
 

Garrison

Donor
Had FDR lost the 1928 NY election, a Dixiecrat like Byrd or Ritchie could have been elected and proved to be even worse than Hoover.


Once Long is killed, it's hard to see a radical like VP Sinclair garnering much loyalty or sympathy from...pretty much anyone but the hardcore left-wing. Populist movements like Long's are entirely dependent on their leaders, not their acolytes.
Again nothing you are suggesting makes a civil war remotely likely.
 

Garrison

Donor
If there are two rival Presidents after a coup killing Long, a civil war is on.
Which again, is not a remotely plausible scenario. you are assuming a coup was actually possible in the USA of the 1930's, without offering anything that would show there was any substance to the Buiness Plot. Sure with enough handwaving you can create the circumstances for a civil war, but such a scenario wouldn't be suitable for Post-1900.
 

cex

Banned
Which again, is not a remotely plausible scenario. you are assuming a coup was actually possible in the USA of the 1930's, without offering anything that would show there was any substance to the Buiness Plot. Sure with enough handwaving you can create the circumstances for a civil war, but such a scenario wouldn't be suitable for Post-1900.
The Business Plot (also called the Wall Street Putsch[1] and The White House Putsch) was a political conspiracy in 1933, in the United States, to overthrow the government of President Franklin D. Roosevelt and install Smedley Butler as dictator.[2][3] Retired Marine Corps Major General Smedley Butler asserted that wealthy businessmen were plotting to create a fascist veterans' organization with Butler as its leader and use it in a coup d'état to overthrow Roosevelt. In 1934, Butler testified under oath before the United States House of Representatives Special Committee on Un-American Activities (the "McCormackDickstein Committee") on these revelations.[4] Although no one was prosecuted, the congressional committee final report said, "there is no question that these attempts were discussed, were planned, and might have been placed in execution when and if the financial backers deemed it expedient."

And remember that the majority of the upper-classes in the 1930s associated Socialism as being a front for Bolshevism - social democracy and Communism were not really differentiated until after WWII. Their reaction to a Farmer-Labor/Social Justice President would probably have been the same as the election of a Stalinist President.
 

Garrison

Donor
The Business Plot (also called the Wall Street Putsch[1] and The White House Putsch) was a political conspiracy in 1933, in the United States, to overthrow the government of President Franklin D. Roosevelt and install Smedley Butler as dictator.[2][3] Retired Marine Corps Major General Smedley Butler asserted that wealthy businessmen were plotting to create a fascist veterans' organization with Butler as its leader and use it in a coup d'état to overthrow Roosevelt. In 1934, Butler testified under oath before the United States House of Representatives Special Committee on Un-American Activities (the "McCormackDickstein Committee") on these revelations.[4] Although no one was prosecuted, the congressional committee final report said, "there is no question that these attempts were discussed, were planned, and might have been placed in execution when and if the financial backers deemed it expedient."

And remember that the majority of the upper-classes in the 1930s associated Socialism as being a front for Bolshevism - social democracy and Communism were not really differentiated until after WWII. Their reaction to a Farmer-Labor/Social Justice President would probably have been the same as the election of a Stalinist President.
Wikipedia is not a great source for this and again you are assuming that even if the plotters were serious they could gain the political and military support to carry it out. You really don't have any sort of foundation for a civil war. Again this has been discussed multiple times so I'm going to suggest you go look those up and drop this.
 
Had FDR lost the 1928 NY election, a Dixiecrat like Byrd or Ritchie could have been elected and proved to be even worse than Hoover.
Had FDR lost the 1928 NY election he could've made a come back in 1930 and then made a bid for the nomination in 1932. Even if you take FDR out of the convention his support base isn't going to just disappear, and will rally behind another liberal candidate such as William McAdoo. And even if he doesn't get the nomination the next most likely contender isn't going to be an arch-conservative like Ritchie or Byrd, neither of whom commanded much influence beyond their home states, it's going to be Newton Baker or John Garner, who while more Conservative then Roosevelt are hardly going to be outright reactionaries when it comes to the role of the Federal government in combating the depression.
 

cex

Banned
Wikipedia is not a great source for this and again you are assuming that even if the plotters were serious they could gain the political and military support to carry it out. You really don't have any sort of foundation for a civil war. Again this has been discussed multiple times so I'm going to suggest you go look those up and drop this.
Then why not produce a source yourself contradicting Schlesinger's The Politics of Upheaval?
Had FDR lost the 1928 NY election he could've made a come back in 1930 and then made a bid for the nomination in 1932. Even if you take FDR out of the convention his support base isn't going to just disappear, and will rally behind another liberal candidate such as William McAdoo. And even if he doesn't get the nomination the next most likely contender isn't going to be an arch-conservative like Ritchie or Byrd, neither of whom commanded much influence beyond their home states, it's going to be Newton Baker or John Garner, who while more Conservative then Roosevelt are hardly going to be outright reactionaries when it comes to the role of the Federal government in combating the depression.
First of all, FDR only ran in 1928 very reluctantly at the behest of Al Smith, so would probably have been finished with politics after a defeat to Ottinger.

And there is no chance of McAdoo being nominated: after all, he was pushing 70, and would have alienated both liberals and conservatives with his Thurmond-esque racial views(he was, after all, from Georgia) and hostility with the Byrd Machine.

As for the Dixiecrats' fiscal conservatism:

"The severity of the Depression and the unpopularity of deficits led many congressional Democrats, including Speaker of the House John Nance Garner, to favor a general sales tax..." but the idea was defeated by a coalition led by Robert L. Doughton of North Carolina and Fiorello La Guardia of New York. "... the insurgents worried that the general sales tax might replace the income tax as the centerpiece of the federal tax system. This was, in fact, exactly what Garner's patron, the publisher William Randolph Hearst, intended..." https://books.google.com/books?id=SFCJDAAAQBAJ&pg=PA118 https://books.google.com/books?id=SFCJDAAAQBAJ&pg=PA119
 
First of all, FDR only ran in 1928 very reluctantly at the behest of Al Smith, so would probably have been finished with politics after a defeat to Ottinger.
He was reluctant to run because he feared he'd lose, not because he was done with politics and to count out Franklin Roosevelt, of all people, because of a razor close defeat in a Republican landslide year is farcical.
And there is no chance of McAdoo being nominated: after all, he was pushing 70, and would have alienated both liberals and conservatives with his Thurmond-esque racial views(he was, after all, from Georgia) and hostility with the Byrd Machine.
What? McAdoo's strength was with Western and Southern delegates for whom his racial attitudes where simply not relevant and who thought the prior Democratic nominees, were either too Conservative or too tied to Catholics/Big City machines. The hostility of the Byrd machine meanwhile, is irrelevant, the organization commanded influence in Virginia and Virginia alone. (and I'm not sure why McAdoo's candidacy is sunk by Thurmond-esque racial views, but not those of other Southern conservatives.) David T lays out the path for his candidacy here.
As for the Dixiecrats' fiscal conservatism:
Passing a Sales Tax won't kill the economic recovery, if it passes at all, given the liberal majorities that would've been elected in 1932. Every other Western Democracy muddled through the Great Depression, most of them under Center or Center-Right governments. There was a global economic recovery from 1933 to 1937 and the United States would not have been an exception, and even a Southern Democrat like Garner still supported the TVA, Deposit Insurance, the Agricultural Adjustment Act, and Rural Electrification, and a Democratic Congress would've overrode Garner's veto of the Bonus Act (a major form of economic stimulus) just like it did FDR's.
 

cex

Banned
He was reluctant to run because he feared he'd lose, not because he was done with politics and to count out Franklin Roosevelt, of all people, because of a razor close defeat in a Republican landslide year is farcical.
FDR's career after losing in 1928 would have ended up the same as Nixon had he lost in 1964 or 1968: Tammany Hall, Smith and Raskob would all have backed Herbert Lehman, not a two-time loser.
What? McAdoo's strength was with Western and Southern delegates for whom his racial attitudes where simply not relevant and who thought the prior Democratic nominees, were either too Conservative or too tied to Catholics/Big City machines. The hostility of the Byrd machine meanwhile, is irrelevant, the organization commanded influence in Virginia and Virginia alone. (and I'm not sure why McAdoo's candidacy is sunk by Thurmond-esque racial views, but not those of other Southern conservatives.) David T lays out the path for his candidacy here.
The Southerners are far more likely to back one of their own, e.g. Byrd, Ritchie or Garner, than a transplant like McAdoo, whose liberalism was anathema to grandees like Senators George and Glass, whose voices held immense sway in the South's patrimonial politics.
Passing a Sales Tax won't kill the economic recovery, if it passes at all, given the liberal majorities that would've been elected in 1932. Every other Western Democracy muddled through the Great Depression, most of them under Center or Center-Right governments. There was a global economic recovery from 1933 to 1937 and the United States would not have been an exception, and even a Southern Democrat like Garner still supported the TVA, Deposit Insurance, the Agricultural Adjustment Act, and Rural Electrification, and a Democratic Congress would've overrode Garner's veto of the Bonus Act (a major form of economic stimulus) just like it did FDR's.
Bruning dealt with the Depression by slashing spending and hiking taxes, which resulted in 33% unemployment. Yes, democracy in Germany and Japan were hardly well established by 1933, but Italy had had a liberal democratic constitution for half a century when Mussolini seized power in 1922. Plus, the global economic recovery was largely fuelled by the US, not European recovery.
 
It's hard to see another civil war in the United States that doesn't come from the States, the Federal government would need to become far stronger and politics more centralized for political ideologies to become the main cause for a proper civil war. It's very unlikely that States would seek to secede from the US after the 1860s.

You would need a much more turbulent post 1900s for the conditions to come. Perhaps go even further back and prevent the Sherman Anti-Trust act from passing and go on to have McKinley avoid assassination. If the progressive era is avoided, Labor tensions would only increase more and more.

Assuming WWI and the Russian Revolution are still the same, you will have an enormous wave of Labor unrest in 1919-1920, added in with the Post-War depression of the time and the Spanish Flu, you could very well have a peak in tensions in America right on election time. A Socialist being elected during this perfect storm while the Veterans are coming back home and unrest is spreading all over the would could provoke the fears of the American Establishment. Only in this case could I see the American Legion being radicalized into a strong base for a coup.

But again, there are many problems in this scenario, mainly the decentralized nature of the US, especially one which does not go through the strengthening of the Federal State during the Progressive Era. If the President is a sufficient ambitious and authoritarian figure (which would make it hard for him to be elected unless he puts up a really good mask to the Establishment as a moderate), he can use this unrest to justify an aggressive push for new labor legislation and try to cram up all the growth of State Control from the Roosevelt-Taft-Wilson Era within a few measures and executive orders.

No doubt the Establishment, especially the Supreme Court, would be barring these efforts and the President could present this to the Unions as the Liberal Burgeouise establishment preventing progress. He calls for a campaign of mass action to pressure congress, the courts and State governments to pass his constitutional ammendments. Add in the racial riots extending into 1921 and the Klan rising as it did to further cause unrest in America.

Add in a general strike called by the President and the Congress calls for his impeachment for provoking insurgency in America. Congress passes the vote and as a result we have armed worker's militias storming DC as the President refuses to step down. Instead he denounces Congress and uses the momentum (including likely more unrest around the world, say the British General Strike happens earlier and the German and Italian socialists rise in 1922 after the Soviets take Warsaw) to remain in office as POTUS.

The President's cabinet stands by him so Congress would elect the President Pro Tempore of the Senate as POTUS in a Special session away from DC. Have the American Legion stand by the President over something like the Bonus Bill and some State governments in the Midwest and Northeast, maybe the West Coast, and they refuse to recognize the Congress' President.

Now you have two opposed Presidents in the background of decades of building up Labor Unrest, the aftermath of a global pandemic, a world war, racial riots and extreme wealth inequality/poverty. Each side with a strong and loyal base of supporters including some level of legitimacy and state governments. The country goes into a civil war in a scale that makes 1860 look pathetic. If the first war was about the Federal Government against the State Governments, the second one is about the Executive against the Legislative and Judiciary powers. But the longer the war goes, the more and more both sides are radicalized. Old America is destroyed and whoever rises up in this confrontation will determine the fate of the 20th Century.
 
I would agree with the other posters, a second civil war is a fun premise for HOI4 but actually highly unlikely in 1930s US. Maybe, and I emphasize MAYBE, you can get something akin to the Whiskey Rebellion but not a full on civil war.

I can not go into full reasons here due to modern politics restrictions but if you want to discuss further, feel free to create a post in political chat and tag me in and I can give you my thoughts as to why you are actually more likely to see a 2nd civil war in modern US versus 1930s us.
 
FDR's career after losing in 1928 would have ended up the same as Nixon had he lost in 1964 or 1968: Tammany Hall, Smith and Raskob would all have backed Herbert Lehman, not a two-time loser.
If Nixon had lost the 1962 CA Gubernatorial election by a single point, and then a global economic meltdown occurred the next year, and you don't think the man would've ran for another office, I have beachside property in Tajikistan to sell you. If losing was reason enough for Tammany, Smith, and Raskob to back Lehman, well I have bad news about the other results of the 1928 New York State elections, where the Democratic slate included a certain candidate for Lieutenant Governor named Herbert Lehman, who both would've lost and lost by a larger margin then FDR.
The Southerners are far more likely to back one of their own, e.g. Byrd, Ritchie or Garner, than a transplant like McAdoo, whose liberalism was anathema to grandees like Senators George and Glass, whose voices held immense sway in the South's patrimonial politics.
Which is why in 1932, of the 11 states of the old Confederacy, 9 of them backed Roosevelt the sole exceptions being Virginia and Garner's home state of Texas.
Bruning dealt with the Depression by slashing spending and hiking taxes, which resulted in 33% unemployment. Yes, democracy in Germany and Japan were hardly well established by 1933, but Italy had had a liberal democratic constitution for half a century when Mussolini seized power in 1922. Plus, the global economic recovery was largely fuelled by the US, not European recovery.
One, even a balanced budget Democrat like Garner isn't going to wholly cut spending. Garner co-sponsored the Garner-Wagner bill in 1932, a $2 billion dollar public works relief bill that was vetoed by Hoover) no small amount of money back when national GDP was only around ~100 billion. As I've discussed he would've supported the TVA, Rural Electrification, Agricultural Adjustment, Deposit Insurance, Securities Regulation and many other pieces of New Deal Regulation, and also the Bonus Bill providing direct stimulus to veterans.

Two, if Bruning had to face the voters in 1936 instead of in 1930, the odds of Weimar Democracy surviving would've improved dramatically. And yes, Italian Democracy, that *beacon* of stability, which between 1861 and and Mussolini's ascent to power had *24* Prime Ministers and thinking it is a relevant comparison to the United States is foolhardy. If you look at the history of other Anglophone democracies,, places who have a similarly entrenched tradition; the United Kingdom, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, all Anglophone Democracies, all of whom did not suffer a Civil War or exclusion from the global economic recovery despite being ruled by center or center right governments in the United Kingdom, in Australia, and in Canada, for part or all of the Depression.

Three, in 1937 US GDP was *43%* higher then it was in 1933, something which points a natural economic strength independent of national policy. Passing a sales tax and hewing to balanced budgets isn't to going to suddenly reverse that into a further recession.

If you want to write a story about a US civil war in the 1930s, you can do that, absolutely nothing is stopping you. The thing about stories and is that you don't have to hew 100% to realism or plausibility. If you want to write a story about a US Civil War in the 1930s who's PoD is FDR losing the 1928 New York election, you can do that too. But if you're asking this board if it is realistic or likely, we are going to tell you that no, it isn't.
 
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