AHC and WI: Angevin Empire Survives (2024 ed)

[John Fredrick Parker]

Since it’s been nearly six years since we last had a general discussion on this, I figured it was worth revisiting. First thing we’d need is an effective PoD, which can be as early as the Third Crusade (since I brought up that possibility in a different thread), though I expect most of our ideas will concern John not becoming Lackland. Would, for example, it be enough if France had lost at Bouvines?

Once we have a PoD and have worked out a general “how” from there, we can proceed to the meat of the discussion -- how is European history thus affected? For example, do the Lancasters proceed to utilize their position to overtake the Valois and unify France under their rule? If so, how? And how does this affect rule in England; are the Baron Wars averted, and does that mean no Manga Carta? How do changes to England, in turn, affect the British Isles as a whole? And what does this mean for the overall balance of power in Western Christendom?

Thanks for your input.

 

[kasumigenx]

Since it’s been nearly six years since we last had a general discussion on this, I figured it was worth revisiting. First thing we’d need is an effective PoD, which can be as early as the Third Crusade (since I brought up that possibility in a different thread), though I expect most of our ideas will concern John not becoming Lackland. Would, for example, it be enough if France had lost at Bouvines?

Once we have a PoD and have worked out a general “how” from there, we can proceed to the meat of the discussion -- how is European history thus affected? For example, do the Lancasters proceed to utilize their position to overtake the Valois and unify France under their rule? If so, how? And how does this affect rule in England; are the Baron Wars averted, and does that mean no Manga Carta? How do changes to England, in turn, affect the British Isles as a whole? And what does this mean for the overall balance of power in Western Christendom?

Thanks for your input.

The best POD would be John does not marry Isabella of Angouleme and marries someone else and does not kill Arthur but partitions the Angevin inheritance in the next generation after John, John's son Richard who in OTL was supposed to have Aquitaine but was not able to hold it.

 

[John Fredrick Parker]

but partitions the Angevin inheritance in the next generation after John, John's son Richard who in OTL was supposed to have Aquitaine but was not able to hold it.

How does dividing up the Angevin Empire lead to it lasting longer? Is there a way to keep the Empire existing longer as a unified entity?

 

[kasumigenx]

How does dividing up the Angevin Empire lead to it lasting longer? Is there a way to keep the Empire existing longer as a unified entity?

No one wanted Aquitaine to be in union with England while Eleanor of Aquitaine was living, so the best solution would be the first son of John having Normandy and England (and Anjou if Arthur loses Anjou) and the second son of John having Aquitaine.

 

[kasumigenx]

Since it’s been nearly six years since we last had a general discussion on this, I figured it was worth revisiting. First thing we’d need is an effective PoD, which can be as early as the Third Crusade (since I brought up that possibility in a different thread), though I expect most of our ideas will concern John not becoming Lackland. Would, for example, it be enough if France had lost at Bouvines?

Once we have a PoD and have worked out a general “how” from there, we can proceed to the meat of the discussion -- how is European history thus affected? For example, do the Lancasters proceed to utilize their position to overtake the Valois and unify France under their rule? If so, how? And how does this affect rule in England; are the Baron Wars averted, and does that mean no Manga Carta? How do changes to England, in turn, affect the British Isles as a whole? And what does this mean for the overall balance of power in Western Christendom?

Thanks for your input.

Another option would be Arthur of Brittany becoming the King of England, I think Arthur holding the Angevin Empire means it can survive another generation.

 

[kasumigenx]

Another possibility is Philip II dying childless and the Angevins get control of France.

 

[Avrorrange]

Another possibility is Philip II dying childless and the Angevins get control of France.

Is that suffice to bring back the idea of royal elections? There are still plenty of male Capets like the House of Burgundy.

 

[John Fredrick Parker]

Another possibility is Philip II dying childless and the Angevins get control of France.

You know, you don't even have to have Phillip die childless -- if his eldest (OTL's Louis VIII) dies before having heirs of his own, the new heir to Phillip would be his younger son, Philip, who OTL only ever had daughters; the next in line after him, at least according to Salic Law, would be the Count of Dreux, but I can't help but wonder if the Plantagenets would necessarily see things that way. Maybe Phillip's daughter Marie takes John or Arthur as her second husband (instead of the Duke of Brabant); maybe the Angevins back the Count of Champagne instead; maybe something else.

 

[kasumigenx]

You know, you don't even have to have Phillip die childless -- if his eldest (OTL's Louis VIII) dies before having heirs of his own, the new heir to Phillip would be his younger son, Philip, who OTL only ever had daughters; the next in line after him, at least according to Salic Law, would be the Count of Dreux, but I can't help but wonder if the Plantagenets would necessarily see things that way. Maybe Phillip's daughter Marie takes John or Arthur as her second husband (instead of the Duke of Brabant); maybe the Angevins back the Count of Champagne instead; maybe something else.

Marie is young enough to marry Henry III or a possible Arthur's son as a third husband.

 

[John Fredrick Parker]

So would everyone here more or less agree that Angevins could not only survive as an intact empire, but also supplant the Valois Capetians as overlords of France? If so, we might turn our attention from "cause" to "effects"...

 

[DrakeRlugia]

The Direct Capetians from 987 to 1314 had the supremely good luck of a direct succession from father to son. Philip IV was succeeded by his eldest son Louis X... Louis X was the first Capetian who had no son and had to pass the throne to his brother. This later led to the succession conflicts which led to the Hundred Years War.

If during the height of the Angevin hegemony there's some sort of succession conflict in France, this is bound to cause trouble. For centuries, the French throne was able to pass from father to son (with sons occasionally being enthroned as co-kings). Philippe II or Louis VIII dying without male issue could cause a lot of issues.

 

[kasumigenx]

So would everyone here more or less agree that Angevins could not only survive as an intact empire, but also supplant the Valois as overlords of France? If so, we might turn our attention from "cause" to "effects"...

I think they either need to either conquer France or partition the inheritance, I think a partition is the best case scenario for John.

 

[kasumigenx]

Is it the best case for the Angevins though? Plausibility being equal, a United empire serves the op better than a partitioned one does; is that simply not in the cards by the time John takes the throne?

I think Arthur of Brittany becoming king could mean that the Angevin Empire gets to remain united at least for one generation more.

 

[kasumigenx]

I think a semi-independent Aquitaine under a separate Plantagenet line is the best outcome for Occitan after Eleanor of Aquitaine's marriage with Henry II.

 

[kasumigenx]

Do you think that the Angevin Empire holding together -- and Aquitaine remaining under lordship of the King of England and Duke of Normandy -- is sustainable long term? Why do you think Aquitaine achieving semi-independence is best?

The continued personal union of Aquitaine with England is bad for the inhabitants of Aquitaine because it caused the decline of the Occitan speakers due to the casualties of the Angevin-Capetian wars.

The best if both Aquitaine and Flanders remain allies of the English King against the King of France.

 

[isabella]

You know, you don't even have to have Phillip die childless -- if his eldest (OTL's Louis VIII) dies before having heirs of his own, the new heir to Phillip would be his younger son, Philip, who OTL only ever had daughters; the next in line after him, at least according to Salic Law, would be the Count of Dreux, but I can't help but wonder if the Plantagenets would necessarily see things that way. Maybe Phillip's daughter Marie takes John or Arthur as her second husband (instead of the Duke of Brabant); maybe the Angevins back the Count of Champagne instead; maybe something else.

Salic law was neither extant or followed in France at this time…

 

[isabella]

Since it’s been nearly six years since we last had a general discussion on this, I figured it was worth revisiting. First thing we’d need is an effective PoD, which can be as early as the Third Crusade (since I brought up that possibility in a different thread), though I expect most of our ideas will concern John not becoming Lackland. Would, for example, it be enough if France had lost at Bouvines?

Once we have a PoD and have worked out a general “how” from there, we can proceed to the meat of the discussion -- how is European history thus affected? For example, do the Lancasters proceed to utilize their position to overtake the Valois and unify France under their rule? If so, how? And how does this affect rule in England; are the Baron Wars averted, and does that mean no Manga Carta? How do changes to England, in turn, affect the British Isles as a whole? And what does this mean for the overall balance of power in Western Christendom?

Thanks for your input.

In my opinion the event who you need to absolutely prevent is the marriage of John with Isabella of Angouleme, leaving her to marry Hugh X of Lusignan as planned and removing more chances for mischiefs in that region (as Hugh IX wanted Angouleme and would not stop without securing it and had already a good claim on it from his second marriage)

 

[eliamartin65]

In my opinion the event who you need to absolutely prevent is the marriage of John with Isabella of Angouleme, leaving her to marry Hugh X of Lusignan as planned and removing more chances for mischiefs in that region (as Hugh IX wanted Angouleme and would not stop without securing it and had already a good claim on it from his second marriage)

Yes, this is better.

Another option is having Alicia of Savoy - John's original betrothed - survive. Meaning she becomes Queen of England if John ever succeeds.

 

[GregTheWolf144]

It's simple. Have Richard I marry Alys of France and have Philip II be childless. The relationship between Richard and Philip never goes south because the reason they had a falling out was over Richard's refusal to marry Alys because she had allegedly been the mistress of his father. Say Philip doesn't have children. In a world where Richard and Philip still love each other, it's possible that Philip would will the Kingdom to his beloved nephew (the son of Richard and Alys) or even if not, he would have a pretty decent claim to it and maybe we'd see an alternate Hundred Years War/War of the French Succession. If that happens and England and France are united early enough I don't think they would have pulled apart and I think we'd have a unified state to this day. Spain would struggle in this timeline. It might either not unify or unify more quickly to counter the French (remember the Plantagenets are French too) behemoth. Likewise the Holy Roman Empire might centralize more to again try to counter this overpowered France. The colonial game, they could end up with all of North America and leaving Spain to South America. They'd definitely be a force to be reckoned with. Would likely speak French with the capital at either Angers or (less likely) Bordeaux. That's all I have right now but I'd like to do more worldbuilding on this actually

 

[isabella]

It's simple. Have Richard I marry Alys of France and have Philip II be childless. The relationship between Richard and Philip never goes south because the reason they had a falling out was over Richard's refusal to marry Alys because she had allegedly been the mistress of his father. Say Philip doesn't have children. In a world where Richard and Philip still love each other, it's possible that Philip would will the Kingdom to his beloved nephew (the son of Richard and Alys) or even if not, he would have a pretty decent claim to it and maybe we'd see an alternate Hundred Years War/War of the French Succession. If that happens and England and France are united early enough I don't think they would have pulled apart and I think we'd have a unified state to this day. Spain would struggle in this timeline. It might either not unify or unify more quickly to counter the French (remember the Plantagenets are French too) behemoth. Likewise the Holy Roman Empire might centralize more to again try to counter this overpowered France. The colonial game, they could end up with all of North America and leaving Spain to South America. They'd definitely be a force to be reckoned with. Would likely speak French with the capital at either Angers or (less likely) Bordeaux. That's all I have right now but I'd like to do more worldbuilding on this actually

That require a POD much earlier than the third crusade and most likely an earlier death of Henry II or him having a complete different mentality as he need to give some real power to his sons instead of keep them as powerless puppets