John Fredrick Parker
Donor
How can, with no PoDs prior to 1521, you have a scenario where (1) Katherine does not become pregnant again (she didn’t OTL), (2) Henry VIII still joins the League of Cognac as OTL, (3) the Church of England does not break with Rome (at least not under Henry), (4) Cardinal Wolsey does not fall from power, and (5) Anne Boleyn does not produce a male heir to the English throne?
Having Katherine of Aragon die of sweating sickness in 1528 could be one way of accomplishing, but I wonder if it’s the best PoD for these purposes? As it happens, there was discussion on that particular PoD fairly recently:
What do you guys think?
Having Katherine of Aragon die of sweating sickness in 1528 could be one way of accomplishing, but I wonder if it’s the best PoD for these purposes? As it happens, there was discussion on that particular PoD fairly recently:
If Katherine of Aragon had died at some point during the Great Matter (like, in 1528 or 1529) and Henry VIII and Anne Boleyn’s marriage is recognized as valid by the Catholic Church, who are the most likely candidates for marriage to Princess Mary say, around 1532-1533?
@FalconHonour @isabella @ordinarylittleme @Tudorfan @Kellan Sullivan
Quite possible actually: just have the 1528 sweat kill her off. Then, Anne is legitimate to everyone. Mary marries into either Scotland or France. Personally, I prefer France, because the idea of an Anglo-French union would be a fun TL as half of Europe would collectively start shitting bricks. Scotland, however, is likelier.
First an Anne Boleyn who was wed to Henry in 1529 would be pretty likely to give him at least of couple of sons, second Henry VIII would take every precaution for preventing the succession of a French grandson. Still a Scottish match for Mary is likelier
I realize Scotland is likelier. I just said a marriage into France would be a fun idea (and well we both know Anne like her predecessor had terrible fertility, with several miscarriages)
what about Mary marrying Hans of Denmark, son of Christian II, favourite nephew of Karl V. It's likely that had he lived, he would've either wound up as governor of the Netherlands or king of Denmark (had his father's bid to have him elected in succession to Frederik I succeeded), but he's "unimportant" enough on the European landscape (similarly to the duque de Beja). Only, he's a king's heir.
This is probably be an unpopular opinion, but Anne's miscarriages were stress-related IMO. She had three miscarriages in one year- when the old wives' tale about miscarriages is that you need to wait at least as long as you were pregnant before trying again, to give the body chance to recover. - which means that she had, if that's true, six pregnancies. Same as Katherine.
KoA's lifestyle was also to blame. Her asceticism, fasting etc. The difference was that Kat's was self-inflicted, Anne's was external factors she couldn't control. There's no reason that, with no "stressors" (Henry having torn down the church and made himself a pariah to the world for setting aside his wife to marry his mistress), Anne wouldn't be able to birth (at least) one healthy male. Especially since, if one looks at Henry's (purported) bastards, in the 1520s, all he was doing was fathering sons (think Katherine Carey and Etheldreda Malte are the only girls)
This is an interesting idea, and really unique! I do always wonder how different things might have been if Hans had lived longer. And I wonder how a match between him and Mary would turn out.
I actually agree with you that its likely that Anne’s miscarriages were stress-related. Though I’m of the opinion that Katherine’s miscarriages weren’t entirely because of her lifestyle; I think it’s likely that it was a combination of stress and lifestyle choices, such as her continuous fasting. Never heard about Anne having three miscarriages in a year, though. I’ll have to look into that more.
Is it that a marriage into France is unlikely to happen at all? Or is it just that a Scottish match is likelier? Because I also kind of think that a French match would be fun.
Where did you get that one from? She had Elizabeth in 1533, a miscarriage in 1534 and another one in 1536, right?
Unlikely to happen unless Mary had at least two healthy younger brothers
What's to say that Anne "raised in France" Boleyn will not think that Mary in France is a grand idea since she is so likely to have sons in this TL by your own estimate?
Henry will NOT marry Mary in France unless he has at least two legitimate healthy sons. He would not trust Francis to not try mischiefs if his succession is not secure… Engagements were one thing, actual matches another one… Still Mary would be 16 only in 1532 (and the Dauphin would be 14 in that year, so just of the legal age for marrying) and Anne would have already the time for giving birth to two children. If Mary’s actual marriage is planned for 1534 then Henry would likely have already a Prince of Wales and a Duke of York in the cradle and no reason for annulling/delay the match, unless he favored a Spanish alliance over a French one and so Mary would be married to John of Denmark…
What I'll add to that -- if Anne marries Henry earlier and isn't brought to power specifically by the Great Matter, her first child could still be a daughter; there's no guarantee her subsequent pregnancies would be more successful than they were OTL, or that she'd be under significantly less stress than OTL (since whatever the religious context, she's not royally born herself and so is completely at her husband's mercy). For that matter, Henry is likely to wait at least a time before marrying Anne (grieving protocols and all that), and I can actually see a scenario where his appetite for Anne diminishes once she's no longer "forbidden fruit".my apologies, two "potential" miscarriages in 1534 (not three), since the dates mentioned are too far apart to be the same pregnancy (January 1534 and September 1534) if she conceived in November 1533 (the earliest she and Henry would've been intimate). Then there's the one in 1535 - if it's not just the result of a misfiled letter, since it's too early to be the boy she miscarried in January 1536 - which makes four potential children between January 1533 and January 1536.
What do you guys think?