Anglo-Saxon England in 7th Century

So technically this is a thread discussing a No Islam TL (with a 632 PoD), but the focus of the discussion may or may not have need to make any mention of it -- the reason being, I’d like us to talk about Anglo-Saxon England in the 7th Century specifically, about its Christianization during said period, and possibly (depending on the conversation goes) on its immediate aftermath.

So with that introduction, let me ask:
  1. With the noted PoD affecting the Byzantine Empire and Rome starting in 634, are there are potential effects that would be likely to seriously hinder efforts at bringing “England” into the fold of the Church? If so, how much hindrance are we talking, and what would be the effects of this alone on English history?
  2. If not, and we can safely say conversion still happens more or less as OTL, then I want to put the “No Islam” Scenario aside completely. Instead I would ask -- with no PoDs prior to 680, how radically different can we change English history by 800? And with those radical changes in place, how would subsequent English history be changed?
Thanks.
 
As I understand it the conversion of the the Anglo Saxons to Christianity was done largely independent of Rome and had virtually no connection to Constantinople. It was far more driven by Irish and other Gaelic Christians, not to mention that it was already present it what would be England long before any Angle, Saxon, Jute or even Frisian showed up.

The conversion of the Anglo-Saxons was nearly inevitable in my opinion. I know there's debate on how large the migration was but it wasn't a genocide of the Britons and a complete replacement, so from the they were living along side and/or ruling start. Some of the Anglo-Saxon kingdoms like Wessex even seem to have been as much Romano British as Saxon.

The only reason the conversion took as long as it did in my opinion is Britain was so fragmented. There weren't just Angles and Saxons but Jutes and Frisians and more. There were dozens of tiny kingdoms not just a few. Once the kingdoms start consolidating the benefits of conversion became attractive at a political level. Similar to the process that converted the Vikings and others later. And by 634 Anglo-Saxons are well and truly connected to wider Christian Europe. That said there is an outside chance that a stronger ERE makes the synod of Whitby play out differently.

On to the second question. Radical change is hard. Not too many outside factors in play outside of the remote chance of Frankish intervention. My pet idea is that Mercia manages unify nearly all of what would be England. More unified and centralised and maybe more militarised it's in a better position to respond to Vikings raids. From there it avoids Danelaw and larger changes to the cultural add mixtures the Northmen brought in when they settled. This 'England' might never get that name. The entire history from that point is up in the air.
 
So technically this is a thread discussing a No Islam TL (with a 632 PoD), but the focus of the discussion may or may not have need to make any mention of it -- the reason being, I’d like us to talk about Anglo-Saxon England in the 7th Century specifically, about its Christianization during said period, and possibly (depending on the conversation goes) on its immediate aftermath.

So with that introduction, let me ask:
  1. With the noted PoD affecting the Byzantine Empire and Rome starting in 634, are there are potential effects that would be likely to seriously hinder efforts at bringing “England” into the fold of the Church? If so, how much hindrance are we talking, and what would be the effects of this alone on English history?
  2. If not, and we can safely say conversion still happens more or less as OTL, then I want to put the “No Islam” Scenario aside completely. Instead I would ask -- with no PoDs prior to 680, how radically different can we change English history by 800? And with those radical changes in place, how would subsequent English history be changed?
Thanks.
I'm just writing an england chapter no Islam timeline but screw spoilers if it's to help some out

1) the Gregorian mission stated way before the pod https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregorian_mission

By the pod Edwin of Northumbria had converted to Christianity


2) it really depends on the butterflies you want to make but I mean the Islamic invasions had little direct impact over england
 
With the noted PoD affecting the Byzantine Empire and Rome starting in 634, are there are potential effects that would be likely to seriously hinder efforts at bringing “England” into the fold of the Church? If so, how much hindrance are we talking, and what would be the effects of this alone on English history?
If not, and we can safely say conversion still happens more or less as OTL, then I want to put the “No Islam” Scenario aside completely. Instead I would ask -- with no PoDs prior to 680, how radically different can we change English history by 800? And with those radical changes in place, how would subsequent English history be changed?
I honestly don't think that england would change too much by 800 - with no islam, however, the franks will be affected (battle of tours, anyone) and obviously that will have affects in england. perhaps the english system, which was a lot more centralized than that of continental europe at this point, becomes more like the franks with their missi dominici? Idk just spitballing about how the franks might exercise more influence if not having to deal with islamic invasions from the south

and yes christianity had started waaay prior to this, the one thing i will say is that may be the church in ireland and scotland could be brought to acknowledge the authority of rome a bit earlier here
 
Sounds like the answer to Q1 is a solid "no"; in which case, it sounds like we're just looking at what can be done with England after the conversions take place.
On to the second question. Radical change is hard. Not too many outside factors in play outside of the remote chance of Frankish intervention. My pet idea is that Mercia manages unify nearly all of what would be England. More unified and centralised and maybe more militarised it's in a better position to respond to Vikings raids. From there it avoids Danelaw and larger changes to the cultural add mixtures the Northmen brought in when they settled. This 'England' might never get that name. The entire history from that point is up in the air.
It seems like the Mercian Supremacy is going to be the big subject of the discussion then -- in addition to your suggestion of wanking Mercia even further, I also wonder if there might be a way to avert the Mercian Supremacy altogether? Maybe the sons of Oswiu manage to hold onto the throne and pass it to their line, rather than the less stable series of regimes they had in OTL's 9th Century?

I also wonder if it's possible, at some point in the 8th Century, for Northumbria and Mercia to be united, or for one to be forced to pay fealty to the other? If that could happen by 800 (or even by 825), it would certainly have huge implications for how the 9th Century plays out...
I honestly don't think that england would change too much by 800
I mean, once we get to Q2, we're really just looking at what we can do. Hence the above on the Mercian Supremacy.
 
There's probably some more room the play around with the Christianisation of England than I previously states. Goldensilver81 pointed out I missed the Gregorian mission out before. But yes it will still happen in my opinion.

As for a Mercia screw it's entirely possible. The fun part of this period is how chaotic it is. Personal relationships count for a great deal and succession is far from clear. A lost battle here or a premature or delayed death there could change many things. A more fragmented Anglo-Saxon realm would probably fall to the Vikings completely. There's possibility the Norse dominate the entire British isles culturally from Dublin to Durham and Anglo-Saxons are a forgotten foot note like the Picts.
 
Penda living longer and deciding to persecute instead of tolerating Christians might push total Christianization back a century or so, on the other hand getting rid of him might let the Northumbrians make a go at loosely unifying England, or at least the Angles
 
As for a Mercia screw it's entirely possible. The fun part of this period is how chaotic it is. Personal relationships count for a great deal and succession is far from clear. A lost battle here or a premature or delayed death there could change many things. A more fragmented Anglo-Saxon realm would probably fall to the Vikings completely. There's possibility the Norse dominate the entire British isles culturally from Dublin to Durham and Anglo-Saxons are a forgotten foot note like the Picts.
It does seem like there’s potential for radically changing English history post 680; on the other hand, thinking really big picture (like over a millenium), it doesn’t seem as radically different from, say, a later PoD providing a Total Viking Conquest of England as one might expect.
Penda living longer and deciding to persecute instead of tolerating Christians might push total Christianization back a century or so, on the other hand getting rid of him might let the Northumbrians make a go at loosely unifying England, or at least the Angles
What’s more, Penda’s son Paeda only converted so that he could marry the daughter of Oswiu, the King of Northumbria; and Oswiu’s father, Aethelfirth, had not only been a pagan, but a persecutor. And topping it off, Oswiu’s predecessor, Oswald, had been Northumbria’s first (seriously) Christian king, and was killed in battle by Penda in 642.

So it does seem to be possible to delay the conversion of Mercia, and frustrate Northumbria’s, it’s just a little unclear how the butterflies travel from the Middle East to England in just eight years.
 
It's a two part question.

1) I don't think any sort of "no Islam" POD affects Britain much until we reach the ATL period corresponding to the First Crusade, around 1100--even then the direct effects of there not being any Crusades at all would not impact a Britain minimally altered from OTL until later centuries than that. Of course overall changes in regional trade patterns would make some generic differences but these would again have more impact on Britain later than earlier I'd think. The main thing the English had to deal with OTL was the Vikings, leading eventually to Normandy existing. Surely with mere butterflies of the chaotic kind it is easy enough to sidestep the Norman Conquest, but in the spirit of "what are the minimal changes required by Islam not existing" that conquest while hardly inevitable is also hardly unlikely for someone on the North Sea (if not Normandy perhaps Flanders?) to attempt anyway.

The reason I doubt a "no Islam" POD affects the far northwest periphery of Europe very much directly is that even without the OTL sweeping loss of the southeast tier of the Eastern Roman Empire (and rapid loss of the southwest as well to become the Maghreb) the ERE is hardly going to be much better able than OTL to project power far to the west, even into Italy let alone beyond. It might seem they could if they hold on to all of North Africa--but the truth is, that even if they proceeded west from the region of Carthage to re-consolidate Mauritania (which would be difficult) their major focus, if "no Islam" means "no conquest of Egypt and the Levant by Arabs," would still be eastward, dealing with a Persia that also presumably does not suffer such conquests of Mesopotamia and indeed OTL their own core territory as well. Now of course of the Arabs are nerfed completely, at any rate as conquerors if not necessarily as rising in importance in their own core region (Red Sea and Indian Ocean trade, maybe expansion along the east African coast) the ERE has more to spare on paper for westward ventures--but by that same token, Persia is also stronger, and even if the ERE retains grip on Egypt and the Levant, whatever benefit they get from that net control has to go largely toward defending at least the Levant, along with Anatolia, and if things go badly for the Romans, perhaps Egypt too, from Persian resurgence.

Now it seems more probable to me that even if Islam doesn't exist, the Arabs are going to assert themselves to some degree more and more around this time and going forward, and that puts Egypt on its own newly vulnerable frontier--the Arabs might well be able to take that region and have possible motives, say if they are adopting some form of Christianity (or a variant on Judaism, but that is getting pretty close to having Islam by another name I suspect--certainly it would clash with OTL Judaism proper much as OTL conflicts with Muslims, which of course were largely resolved OTL by the Jews of the Islamic regions submitting to Islamic authority in return for their Faith of the Book being respected--in a world with a weaker Arabia in more fratricidal ideological conflict with Judaism as we recognize it OTL, this would be less likely to work) to press on to the Levant as well, in fact they are positioned to directly threaten the eastern Med coast and its hinterlands at least as well as Egypt, assuming the Persians aren't in a position to assert control of the region inland from there strongly themselves.

Anyway, Arab expansion toward the Med under any banner, pagan, Christian, a version of Judaism, Buddhist, some variation on Zoroastrian, whatever, brings the overall situation closer to OTL in substance.

A difference might be that northwest Africa is largely left alone--but honestly I think if the Arabs do work their way into running Egypt by any path, their influence will spread westward very rapidly via the northern Sahara just as OTL; perhaps the Moors would adopt whatever religion the Arabs have. It would look more and more like OTL. If the Arabs have adopted some form of Christianity, perhaps the western Latins will tend to ally with them in opposition to the ERE, which would certainly be a major ATL divergence--but even so, while the fates of Italy, Spain and southern France would be much different, I don't see that having much impact north of there.

In short, No Islam strongly affects the Mediterranean world, but not so much north of the Pyrenees/Alps line, except for the enclave of southern France, which is separated by the relatively barren lands of south-central France. Aquitaine would be affected, but not so much to change the general pattern of its relations with peoples further north on the Atlantic.

2) as for general maximal changes, in a sense of course the sky is the limit, as always in ATL. Adopt a strong enough implementation of the Butterfly principle and anything goes after a few hundred years, which is why I think the artistry of AH lies more in looking at deeper currents and being parsimonious with random change just for the hell of it.

Honestly, if we are looking at the Anglo-Saxon realms in particular, until the Vikings started to raid their coasts they were pretty much left alone to develop as they wanted to, and I don't see anyone being in a position to force results much different in general outcome than adopted OTL. Perhaps a Mercian centered evolution might result in a stronger England, but actually even having lost half the land to the Danelaw OTL, Alfred the Great for instance led a pretty strong one OTL, and it is hardly clear to me the Mercians pulling ahead of Wessex would have plausibly been stronger and better able to hold the "Danes" at bay. It all strikes me as six of one, half a dozen of the other, and however we shuffle the Heptarchy cards the general outcome seems likely to be one or two "English" or "Saxon" or whatever we want to call them kingdoms.

BTW, I believe the Angle identity particularly is more in the east and southeast of England, and these people did not dominate the end game of the Heptarchy--the reason the people as a whole, in one kingdom or many of them, are called "Angles" leading to "English" is I think that the Catholic Church dealt with Angles first, and took to calling all the Anglo-Saxon lineage peoples in Britain "Angles" generically--it doesn't relate then to which old Heptarchy core, Wessex, Mercia, Northumbria or someone else even ultimately accomplishes the consolidation, by the time that is in the cards, they've all been calling themselves "English" for some time.

Preventing the Danelaw, or alternatively in the other direction having all the English kingdoms collapse in that invasion and having the politics and culture evolve as a fusion of Nordic and initially pagan conquerors ruling a people I think would cling to Christian identity rather stubbornly and ultimately converting their overlords, seem like the range we have to work with.

No Danelaw at all strikes me as a pretty wankish thing to specify, but not I guess out of bounds of possibility completely--perhaps a situation more like Normandy where a strong English and Christian monarchy (or perhaps several of them--Wessex in the south, Mercia in the west and some Northumbrian remnant in the north maybe) limits the settlement of Nordic invaders, the latter don't unite much politically at all as pagans, but they gradually negotiate some sort of nominally subordinate status as vassals of the Christian kings while de facto having strong autonomy. It might get very interesting if there are two or three rival legacy Christian English kingdoms for neighboring bands of Nordics to play off against each other, perhaps instead establishing their own centralized, more or less, "Danish" kingdom that I do think must ultimately Christianize. Thus this intermediate version of "preventing" the Danelaw by limiting it to smaller than OTL and then "Normandizing" it actually might work out to be a Heptarchy reset, but with most of the separate kingdoms being Christian from the get-go.

A complete collapse of all Anglo-Saxon kingdoms under a wave of Nordic invaders also presents the full spectrum of possibilities, from a deeper Heptarchy reset where the Nordics actually do manage to break the hold of Christianity on the mentality of their subjects resulting in some English fleeing west to Wales to negotiate belatedly with the survivals of the Britons they had overwhelmed as a vast heathen army in their own day while the majority either get killed off or merge with their Nordic invaders culturally and have to be re-Christianized a third time. All the way to the other extreme, whereby loose bands of disparate Nordic invaders pretty much decimate and burn over English institutions, but are also quickly subverted to convert to Christianity, and some ambitious types very quickly consolidate a new kingdom where say at first there are five or six (or Seven! or eight or nine etc of course) enclaves with pretensions of sovereignty, but the majority of these in some zone or other come under one rule (by hook or crook, perhaps not by conquest but by voluntary federation for purposes of more military success) which proceeds to gobble up the rest in fairly short order after that, creating a brand new kingdom that might or might not be called "English" but is fundamentally a variation on unified England of OTL.

In the end I think we go into the eleventh century with things pretty largely as OTL in overall form, regardless of what sorts of detailed ethnic and dynastic zigzags the process of forming the coherent North Germanic stew of a nation would be. And then the question of some kind of conquest from some mainland power is there, but it might be that that was just William getting very lucky OTL and not particularly likely in most TLs. Assuming some sort of strong Continental tie is formed I don't see it being extremely different from OTL in terms of what affects the lives of English people very much; the major alternatives are either No Conquest and ongoing England as a Nordic country, or Some Kinda Conquest and England being tied to Norman or Flemish politics and continental ventures peculiar to the mainland conquerors, with the subjugated English evolving to fuse with their conquerors and make their masters' identity switch over to being lords of the English from among the English rather than conquerors from afar.

Even if the English avoid a Norman or other mainland conquest, and even if they are even more strongly influenced by the Nordics than OTL, I don't see them turning their backs on their neighbors across the Channel completely either. Whoever rules England will be influenced by the interests of lords of England, and will develop ties of some kind with coastal France and Spain and beyond to the Mediterranean, and as the Middle Ages and modern periods develop will be drawn more and more that way and less and less to the north.
 
I also wonder if it's possible, at some point in the 8th Century, for Northumbria and Mercia to be united, or for one to be forced to pay fealty to the other? If that could happen by 800 (or even by 825), it would certainly have huge implications for how the 9th Century plays out...

Perhaps looking to Wessex's (and prior and to a lesser extent, Mercia's) incorporation of the eastern kingdoms (Kent, Essex, etc.) during the same time period IOTL for an analogue or at least inspiration?

Though I imagine a 'Mercumbria' would have a fair bit less coherence than ITTL's Greater Wessex - a Mercian-Northumbrian union would be a bit awkward and torn between a number of different focuses (Mercian interests in Wales and over the other Southumbrian English kingdoms; Northumbrian interests in Pictland/the future Scotland and the Britons of Alt Clut), Greater Wessex was a bit more compact.

I also wonder if there might be a way to avert the Mercian Supremacy altogether? Maybe the sons of Oswiu manage to hold onto the throne and pass it to their line, rather than the less stable series of regimes they had in OTL's 9th Century?
Feel like as soon as an unpopular, unsuccessful, or minor king comes along the 'Aethelfrithing' hold on the throne would be in jeopardy, though - that's just the political culture of the Anglo-Saxon kingdoms at this point. A sufficiently popular/ambitious/canny noble, who might only be a very distant relative of the reigning king, is a plausible candidate for power if he can claim (or fabricate) descent from the dynasty's distant founder (Ida, in Northumbria's case).

You can change that political culture and normalise a more restricted succession - Egbert's descendants in Wessex managed it, after all- but feel like it takes a fair while (i.e. a string of successful kings who don't get themselves killed or deposed) or a major external factor (e.g. the pressure of Viking raids and invasions).
 
630 gives you a lot of room to play around with Christianisation for sure- it’s still something primarily associated with Scotti and Britones. A more successful Penda, especially one that is able to meaningfully defy the Franks (say a Frankish king sends a few ships over to protect a king they’re related to by marriage, Pendas pagan army defeats them) could discredit the political advantages of Christianity for a bit so that when the Danes do come over, they find the island much more pagan.

that’s not to deny the fact that specifically in this context, Christianity does offer meaningful advantages for royal authority, and definitely by 680 the window has passed.
 
difference might be that northwest Africa is largely left alone--but honestly I think if the Arabs do work their way into running Egypt by any path, their influence will spread westward very rapidly via the northern Sahara just as OTL; p
I don't think of the Arab migrations are like the Germanic ones north Africa falls it took the caliphate decades to subdue it and Egypt is more than enough for migrants who are probably starving from the great drought of 638
 
Well butterflies are left to you but the biggest continental butterfly is Frankia who effects in the long run example if byzantine Italy reminds an thing and the franks do not bother or fail to conquer it they swift attention maybe to the north
Example Denmark and a Frankish danish war would have a big impact on the future viking age
 
would still be eastward, dealing with a Persia
I have spoken about these issues but unless Persia gets very very good leaders which yazdegered III wasn't a no Arab conquest the 7th century will be Iran dark ages for one the empire prior to 633 was already splitting apart via the 628-632 war , this would continue the Persians didn't even unite when Islam threaten them much less here .

2) Arab raids to a weaken mesopotamia are going to occur especially after 638 , with the civil strife and the fact the Persians got rid of their buffer the lakmids

3) in the otl despite being declared status quo ante bellum the real 602-628 war ends with territorial changes the agreement of Maurice was that most persian Armenia would be given along with half of Caucasian Iberia, Heraclius vassalized all of Caucasian Iberia and even Caucasian Albania declared loyalty to him but the Persians disputed it

4) the eastern polities while to weak to conquer Persia would raid especially when considering that there is no caliphate that subjected the greater khorosan and transoxinia the Tang would likely subjugate transoxinia and likely push a group or two west adding to the chaos
 
I have an odd idea. Not sure if its plausible but here goes. In a no Islam timeline and a stronger ERE could England or some part of the British Isles become orthodox rather than catholic. Given the tendency of many British monarchs to resent Rome's influence an autocephalous church would suit some. I remember reading that Harold Godwinson appealed to Constantinople when the Pope sided with William. That pod strikes me as much too late though.
 
Honestly, if we are looking at the Anglo-Saxon realms in particular, until the Vikings started to raid their coasts they were pretty much left alone to develop as they wanted to, and I don't see anyone being in a position to force results much different in general outcome than adopted OTL. Perhaps a Mercian centered evolution might result in a stronger England, but actually even having lost half the land to the Danelaw OTL, Alfred the Great for instance led a pretty strong one OTL, and it is hardly clear to me the Mercians pulling ahead of Wessex would have plausibly been stronger and better able to hold the "Danes" at bay. It all strikes me as six of one, half a dozen of the other, and however we shuffle the Heptarchy cards the general outcome seems likely to be one or two "English" or "Saxon" or whatever we want to call them kingdoms...

No Danelaw at all strikes me as a pretty wankish thing to specify, but not I guess out of bounds of possibility completely--perhaps a situation more like Normandy where a strong English and Christian monarchy (or perhaps several of them--Wessex in the south, Mercia in the west and some Northumbrian remnant in the north maybe) limits the settlement of Nordic invaders, the latter don't unite much politically at all as pagans, but they gradually negotiate some sort of nominally subordinate status as vassals of the Christian kings while de facto having strong autonomy. It might get very interesting if there are two or three rival legacy Christian English kingdoms for neighboring bands of Nordics to play off against each other, perhaps instead establishing their own centralized, more or less, "Danish" kingdom that I do think must ultimately Christianize. Thus this intermediate version of "preventing" the Danelaw by limiting it to smaller than OTL and then "Normandizing" it actually might work out to be a Heptarchy reset, but with most of the separate kingdoms being Christian from the get-go.
Looking back at this, I'm wondering now if maybe we weren't a little too quick to dismiss the idea of an alternate 8th Century putting the Anglo-Saxon Kingdoms in a significantly stronger position to hold off the viking incursions than they were OTL. For example, if Northumbria had a more stable succession of rulers after Oswiu, maybe they'd be a better position to respond to or prevent the attack on Lindsfarne? Conversely, if the strongest of the Heptarchy was the centrally positioned Mercia, and not the southernmost Wessex, maybe the Norse wouldn't have penetrated so far into souther Britain?

Just a thought.
 
Or you could go the other direction entirely, what if there was no northumbria or anglo saxon kingdoms at all? At the POD, Cadwallon has just or is about to smash Edwin, with Penda as the junior ally, if things go as expected at the Battle of Heavensfield, Cadwallon crushes Oswalds small group of renegades and continues driving out/killing all Angles in Bernicia and Deira, to re-establish the Briton dominion there. Penda already has agreed to allow British bishops entry into Mercia as a counterweight to the Roman mission to Northumbria. Let Cadwallon get settled and have decent luck with succesion and its possible to have a Briton Britain at least till the Norse show up.
 
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