British Space Program

[unclepatrick]

Now I not trying to have Britain compete with the US and USSR, but I was watching these shows and wonder how could Britain have keep the Program going in 1971? I would have love to see Black Arrow as a Satellite launch system to compete with the French Ariane System. Bonus Points if you can get the Beagle 2 launch by a British Rocket.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUJoESpNk_Y
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xVc3u1Uyjhg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rsPg8-vxWPs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UuZ7upR-yxQ

And a No Prize if you can have a Doctor Who crossover

 

[Ironstark]

Oooo, I remember reading a few threads yonks ago about this. One of my favourite subjects! I will go a'trollin and have a look and see if I can dig anything up

 

[Woolly Mammoth]

Keep the Needles test sight on the isle of wight going is a strong start for this.

 

[Ironstark]

British space vehicles 1950-1985


A Black Knight rocket on display in Edinburgh


Main articles: Blue Streak (missile), Black Knight (rocket), Black Prince (rocket), and Black Arrow
Britain developed and launched several space rockets, as well as developing space planes.
Development of a British launch system to carry a nuclear device took place from 1950 onwards.
Rockets were tested on the Isle of Wight and both tested and launched from Woomera in South Australia. These included the Black Knight and Blue Streak rockets.
A major satellite launch vehicle was proposed in 1957 based on Blue Streak and Black Knight technology. This was named Black Prince, but the project was cancelled in 1960 due to lack of funding. Blue Streak rockets continued to be launched as the first stage of the European Europa carrier rocket until Europa's cancellation in 1972.
The smaller Black Arrow launcher was developed from Black Knight and was first launched in 1969 from Woomera. In 1971, the last Black Arrow (R3) launched Prospero X-3, the only British satellite to be launched using an all-British rocket.
By 1972, UK government funding of both Blue Streak (missile) and Black Arrow had ceased, and no further government-backed British space rockets were developed. Other space agencies, notably NASA, were used for subsequent launches of UK satellites. Communication with the Prospero X-3 was terminated in 1996.
Falstaff, a British hypersonic test rocket, was launched from Woomera between 1969 and 1979.
A revival of the official national space programme was seen in 1982 when the British government officially backed the HOTOL project, an ambitious attempt at a re-usable space plane using air-breathing rocket engines designed by Alan Bond. Work began at British Aerospace. However, having classified the engine design as 'top secret' the government then ended funding for the project, terminating it.

Thats what wikipedia has to say, but I agree with Xhavnak, you want to see more investment in home grown space industries and organisations. If more space stuff is invested in and built at home, then you have more money made and more lives dependent on it's continued existance.

 

[Woolly Mammoth]

The British program was quite developed - having been to the Needles site they had all the equipment ready for testing and developed quite advanced things like smokeless clolourless fuel. All that was really lacking was the political willpower for the continued investment - regarded it as more efficient to use the american rockets. Industry on the Island had built up to support it and was ready at hand - these suffered when the test site was shut.

 

[MerryPrankster]

Here's a thread I started about the "Major Tom" songs being real. E of Pi wrote a scenario featuring a manned British space program that suffered a tragic end.

https://www.alternatehistory.com/Discussion/showthread.php?t=147408&highlight=Major+Tom

It's a really well-done scenario.

 

[Bahamut-255]

Good luck. The Black Arrow could only carry a very tiny payload into LEO. Even less than the Europa LV - had it been able to work. As such, it could never properly compete with the Ariane 1.

Improving relations with ESRO and ELDO - the precursors to the ESA - would be the most viable option. As is getting Europa to work well - which did use a British 1st Stage.

Most important, above all else. You absolutely have to be able to get the UK Governments to gain the ability to see more than 0.000274 seconds in advance. Something which has retarded the UK since long before WWII.

Oooo, I remember reading a few threads yonks ago about this. One of my favourite subjects! I will go a'trollin and have a look and see if I can dig anything up

Here's a decent starting point. I really do need to get back to it.

 

[The Oncoming Storm]

Here's a good website about Britain's Space Programme

http://www.spaceuk.org/

As said above what killed it was a lack of political will and good old fashioned British short termism. Blue Streak had developed into a capable booster as Europa proved, what led that project down was the German third stage, yet it was the British part that got canned, the Treasury was itching for an excuse to kill it. Black Arrow had a very limited payload but it could have been developed into a more capable system, I think it was actually intended to serve as the upper stages of Blue Streak which would have made it a very capable launcher.

 

[Ironstark]

The British program was quite developed - having been to the Needles site they had all the equipment ready for testing and developed quite advanced things like smokeless clolourless fuel. All that was really lacking was the political willpower for the continued investment - regarded it as more efficient to use the american rockets. Industry on the Island had built up to support it and was ready at hand - these suffered when the test site was shut.

So we either need more demand for British rockets, or less demand for American ones. Any trade deals that could be fiddled, or worse relations with the US? Perhaps a different nuclear deterrence system?

 

[The Oncoming Storm]

So we either need more demand for British rockets, or less demand for American ones. Any trade deals that could be fiddled, or worse relations with the US? Perhaps a different nuclear deterrence system?

Worse relations with the U.S. could easily be due to Eden holding his nerve over Suez and telling Eisenhower where to go. In the aftermath Britain and France continue with a number of collaborative military and scientific projects. abc123's Consequences of a Heart Attack TL looks at how this might have worked out.

 

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

Getting the British to stay in ELDO is hard enough, but should be possible. A purely British launch vehicle would have been way beyond what the Brits were prepared to spend. Oh, sure, they could launch a few payloads, but it wouldn't be at all competitive.

 

[e of pi]

Here's a thread I started about the "Major Tom" songs being real. E of Pi wrote a scenario featuring a manned British space program that suffered a tragic end.

https://www.alternatehistory.com/Discussion/showthread.php?t=147408&highlight=Major+Tom

It's a really well-done scenario.

Ick. I forgot how morbid I got with that one. Yeesh, and he was still alive at the end? Anyway, I basically got away with justifying the British program there by going into as little detail as I could--the goal was to match the song, not create a reasonable program. As others have said, they weren't really willing to spend the kind of money it would have required to do it entirely by themselves.

 

[Simon]

IIRC wasn't one of the major problems for the British programme that they would be producing a minimum number of launchers per year but didn't have enough payloads to put on them as the commercial side of things hadn't developed enough yet or government loads? In effect a curse of developing things too soon and not having the money of the two superpowers to keep throwing it at to keep the programme ticking over. Would it help if they either started seriously a bit later or took the slow and steady route to stretch out resources so that when they do get a viable rocket there's an actual market to service?

Getting the British to stay in ELDO is hard enough, but should be possible. A purely British launch vehicle would have been way beyond what the Brits were prepared to spend. Oh, sure, they could launch a few payloads, but it wouldn't be at all competitive.

Well if the other countries parts had actually worked that might have been a start. As I understand things the British main section worked perfectly every time, it was the design and quality control of the other contributions that let it down.

 

[Shevek23]

Good luck. ...

What he says, except I can't be serious about the wish for "good luck." It seems to me the way forward for European nations, given a situation not unlike OTL post WWII as a starting point, is for them to work together. A European program, sure, that would be fantastic and could work.

A purely British one?

Only if the Empire holds together. And I can't really see that happening unless the Empire were radically reformed much farther back than 1939, and had good luck.

There's several timelines I'm following where I could believe it. In one of them, the Empire holds in part because they've got uptime tech from the Star Trek post-TNG era, so already during WWII they're putting satellites up (in secret, using shuttle craft from a wrecked Defiant-class starship). A lot of fans of The Whale Has Wings look forward to a much stronger Empire postwar, but I have my doubts about it. Some hopes, many doubts.

Dathi's CanadaWank might get there someday, though not for decades at the rate he's been posting!

I'm picky about the kind of continued Empire I would support; it has to be democratic and humane, which would mean it wouldn't really be British at all anymore, it would be mostly run by and for people who aren't European at all. But with a British origin, actual Britons and their "white" colonies would still tend to lead the way for a generation or two and this would be the timeframe in which the Empire space program gets started, the 50s going into the 60s.

But I don't see the sense in the kind of Britain we have today, one European nation among many, taking such pride in holding themselves aloof from the Continent. The way forward seems to me to be to join forces with Europe, not try to out-compete it.

The British post-war seem to accomplish their independence from Europe mainly by de facto subordinating themselves to the USA.

 

[e of pi]

Well if the other countries parts had actually worked that might have been a start. As I understand things the British main section worked perfectly every time, it was the design and quality control of the other contributions that let it down.

And that's basically the starting point both Bahamut and I have used in our respective TLs: make them really look into the early failures so they fix the issues that lead OTL to the later ones, and hope that's enough to keep ELDO together long enough for the UK to also be part of ESA. It's not pure British, but without a stronger Britain (and frankly one far less short-sighted) an entirely independent British program is unlikely. That's the recipe Eyes and Bahamut's TL plan on using--I can say at least in Eyes that derivatives of the British Blue Streak rocket stage will be flying through the 90s, and if our current plans hold, perhaps well beyond. Oh, whoop,s that might be a slight spoiler.

 

[Michel Van]

You know, it was politic who kill the british space program.

Technical, there were no problems.
Blue Streak and Black Knight and Black Arrow were good designs.

Black Arrow program was on a shoestring budget of 100 million pound sterling (2012 value)
it used leftover technology of Black Knight and Blue Steel weapon.
based on 5 unit build on total program cost, is around 20 million pound sterling for one Black Arrow.

there is one thing, i found odd on Black Arrow program.
it used clean nontoxic rocket fuel, made it ideal for launch from british coast!
there were those site proposed for british launch pad
instead it was move half over the world to Australia ELDO launch site.
and then came this real reason why Black Arrow was cancelled

but the politicians overlook one launch side the island of St Kilda
and there is Black Diamant a french proposal for combination of Diamant rocket and Black Arrow second stage.
thank to british politic killing the british space program, the only peace of Black Arrow hardware fly on french rocket.
Was it's payload fairing on Diamant BP4...


so what if the program had went on ?
Black Arrow had launch series of X-satellites into orbit, testing British space technology.
one of them had to be test for ion engine in space, testing moving from low polar orbit into geostationary !
RAE made proposal for higher payload on Black Arrow:
by 30% with increased chamber pressure in Gamma engine.
by 35% by replace the Gamma with Stentor engine.
by 63% with use of 8 skylark solid rocket as boosters.

and there also Black Diamant or the option to launch Black Arrow from french Guiana Space Centre.

 

[Archibald]

The Blue Streak was interesting in the sense it made Britain the third country in the world to field a large rocket (or a powerful missile, same thing). It is sad that such rocket couldn't be used in a better way than Europa.
I'd like to see a TL where, instead of Concorde (which was ultimately a dead end, unfortunately) France and Great Britain develops the Blue Streak as an efficient launcher in the style of Atlas (Agena, then Centaur).
A bizarre aspect of the Concorde agreement was there was no escape clause. France and Great Britain were legally committed to the very end of the program ! Not quite useful for a supersonic airliner, but it may help a space program running through political cycles
(a British Walter Mondale
"we are cutting your space exploration program"
(space officials "you can't: look at the 1961 agreement. No escape clause, too much political damage. Now, what were you talking about ? (evil laugh)
With a bit of luck France and Great Britain may even compete in the lunar race, although with robots only - a robotic orbiter or even a Surveyor, which launcher was Atlas-Centaur.

 

[Simon]

Here's a good website about Britain's Space Programme. http://www.spaceuk.org/

Forgot to say but I bought the book that site is based on - Nicholas Hill's A Vertical Empire - a couple of months back and just recently got around to starting to read it and I'd definitely recommend it to people, it's very good.

 

[unclepatrick]

Forgot to say but I bought the book that site is based on - Nicholas Hill's A Vertical Empire - a couple of months back and just recently got around to starting to read it and I'd definitely recommend it to people, it's very good.

Thanks for the recommendation. I order the book today from Amazon.

 

[PMN1]

Forgot to say but I bought the book that site is based on - Nicholas Hill's A Vertical Empire - a couple of months back and just recently got around to starting to read it and I'd definitely recommend it to people, it's very good.

He has 'An Atomic Empire' being released next year - April I think.