German F-15
- Thread starter AdA
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They were in the MRCA program for the Air to Ground and anti-ship roles. The F-4F was initially meant purely as a fighter. Later on it got some air to ground capability when the Tornado program was delayed but the focus when they selected the F-4 was very much on getting a fighter. And all F-15 had air to ground capability, it just wasn't used much until the E.
It can happen if and only if their version of the F-15 can be equipped with air-to-ground weapons. I know the USAF wanted an absolutely pure air superiority fighter, and a superpower needs and can afford that sort of aircraft. West Germany needed a multi-role aircraft, as powers of that size do. At least, it needed a fighter that could drop bombs if the need or opportunity should arise. The F-4 could already do air-to-ground. So I think it's largely a question of how easily the F-15A/B could be equipped for air-to-ground. It need not be more than Mark-series iron bombs and some cluster bombs (as I saw, the F-4F had AGM-65 Maverick support added later). That could be trivial, or it could require a complete rebuild of the avionics and cockpit to provide a bombsight of some kind and the ability to use air-to-ground hardpoints and weapons.
I don't know when the F-4Fs were ordered, but politics comes into play here, too. The SPD held West Germany more or less from 1969 to 1982; they were less willing to buy expensive American fighters than the CDU would've been. (I won't put spectrum labels on them, because those differ so much globally, but the CDU is the more conservative of the two.) An SPD government is definitely not buying a pure fighter.
It's hard for me to say how this might've impacted Tornado or Eurofighter. Since the F-15 is significantly more capable than the F-4, they really would have had a fighter (provided it could drop bombs) that could carry them through the end of the Cold War and even up to the present day. That could save the government a whole lot of money. On the other hand, it would mean West German, later German, businesses wouldn't get to develop and build fighters of their own.
One last thing, though it's an F-4F thing. Deleting the ability to use the AIM-7 Sparrow, regardless of its poor performance in Vietnam, sounds like a very bad idea. I don't know the reason for it. If they would have done the same thing with the F-15, there is much less of a point in having F-15s.
I don't know when the F-4Fs were ordered, but politics comes into play here, too. The SPD held West Germany more or less from 1969 to 1982; they were less willing to buy expensive American fighters than the CDU would've been. (I won't put spectrum labels on them, because those differ so much globally, but the CDU is the more conservative of the two.) An SPD government is definitely not buying a pure fighter.
It's hard for me to say how this might've impacted Tornado or Eurofighter. Since the F-15 is significantly more capable than the F-4, they really would have had a fighter (provided it could drop bombs) that could carry them through the end of the Cold War and even up to the present day. That could save the government a whole lot of money. On the other hand, it would mean West German, later German, businesses wouldn't get to develop and build fighters of their own.
One last thing, though it's an F-4F thing. Deleting the ability to use the AIM-7 Sparrow, regardless of its poor performance in Vietnam, sounds like a very bad idea. I don't know the reason for it. If they would have done the same thing with the F-15, there is much less of a point in having F-15s.
Folks
IIRC even the orginal F15A/B had an austere air to ground capabilty in the form of unguided MK80 series bombs on MERs mounted in place of the external tanks. Although the USAF choose not to utilise this , one airforce did, the IDF, this was used in 1985 in operation Wooden Leg , which was an attack on the PLO HQ in Tunis.
Given that the Germans only added the AGM-65 capabilty in the very late 80s, its not hard to see that being added by MACAIR if that got a German F15 buy.
I wonder why the Germans wanted the AIM7 deleted, does anyone know the reason behind this?
Regards
Butch
IIRC even the orginal F15A/B had an austere air to ground capabilty in the form of unguided MK80 series bombs on MERs mounted in place of the external tanks. Although the USAF choose not to utilise this , one airforce did, the IDF, this was used in 1985 in operation Wooden Leg , which was an attack on the PLO HQ in Tunis.
Given that the Germans only added the AGM-65 capabilty in the very late 80s, its not hard to see that being added by MACAIR if that got a German F15 buy.
I wonder why the Germans wanted the AIM7 deleted, does anyone know the reason behind this?
Regards
Butch
Khanzeer
Banned
Were the Americans and british not willing to trust germans with a AIM7 armed fighter ?
As everyone else had AIM7 with their F4 , even Egypt
Politics?
There were efforts to lighten the F-4F, but that's not a probable cause, since retaining AIM7 capability wouldn't probably have a weight penalty. At the time there were allied fighter units deployed in Germany and having BVR capability might perhapes signaled an intentention to "go at it alone" in the air defense of Germany?
If that was the case, buying F-15 would send a powerful "we've got this" message to allies. Maybe the German were deliberately underbuying
The consequences for other nations might also be big.
Germany was expected to buy a lot of Eurofighters, so the whole program might be closed without the LW orders, and with F-15 they have no need for the eurofighter. Italy was also urgently looking for a new fighter, and could also buy F-15, or F-18.
The British would still have the ADV of the Tornado, but without Eurofighters might also buy F-15 since the Tornado was a pure interceptor.
Of course no Eurofighters would be good news for the Rafale and the Gripen, but would the beat the US offers?
Germany was expected to buy a lot of Eurofighters, so the whole program might be closed without the LW orders, and with F-15 they have no need for the eurofighter. Italy was also urgently looking for a new fighter, and could also buy F-15, or F-18.
The British would still have the ADV of the Tornado, but without Eurofighters might also buy F-15 since the Tornado was a pure interceptor.
Of course no Eurofighters would be good news for the Rafale and the Gripen, but would the beat the US offers?
Another possible explanation for the deletion of Sparrow is that the Germans planned from the start to upgrade their Phantoms early and didn't want to pay for stuff they would be replacing anyway.
They did take care to get the best airframe/engine combination, and later incorporated all the capabilities (AMRAAM, late model sidewinders, etc)
They did take care to get the best airframe/engine combination, and later incorporated all the capabilities (AMRAAM, late model sidewinders, etc)
The Germans were always ambivalent about Eurofighter, particularly after the cold war ended. The German Defence ministry kept trying to change the radar and EJ200 for the APG65 and F404 engines and wanted to reduce the buy, they really wanted something smaller like the TKF90 or something off the shelf like the F18L anyway.
There were several reasons why the Germans not took the F-16, F-15 and F-14 for Luftwaffe
First: Not tested Hardware,
After issue with F-104G Starfighter, the Germans were suspicious
Also because at time (1968-69) the F-16, F-15 and F-14 were concept, not even build Prototype, (F-15 flew on 27 July 1972, the F-14 on 21 December 1970, the F-16 on 2 February 1974)
and the Luftwaffe wanted something inspiring confidence.
Second: This is not What we want
What Luftwaffe wanted in 1968 were unarmed reconnaissance Jets, not jet-fighters, so the reconnaissance F-4 was what the Luftwaffe bought.
Since there was that Little Bomber/fighter Program that became with British the Tornado Bomber
Third: what do mean we not getting a Fighter ?
as the Tornado turned 1970 into reconnaissance/Bomber, needed Luftwaffe a Fighter now else were
Again the Germans were suspicious and took a aircraft they know, there F-4 in service were excellent, so why not buy the waponized version of F-4?
Four: for bargain price and package deal
Another Reason the Germans wanted F-4 was simple: they could use the spare parts of there F-4 fleet already operational.
and since the Luftwaffe always was run on shoe string budget, is to kill two birds with one stone...
First: Not tested Hardware,
After issue with F-104G Starfighter, the Germans were suspicious
Also because at time (1968-69) the F-16, F-15 and F-14 were concept, not even build Prototype, (F-15 flew on 27 July 1972, the F-14 on 21 December 1970, the F-16 on 2 February 1974)
and the Luftwaffe wanted something inspiring confidence.
Second: This is not What we want
What Luftwaffe wanted in 1968 were unarmed reconnaissance Jets, not jet-fighters, so the reconnaissance F-4 was what the Luftwaffe bought.
Since there was that Little Bomber/fighter Program that became with British the Tornado Bomber
Third: what do mean we not getting a Fighter ?
as the Tornado turned 1970 into reconnaissance/Bomber, needed Luftwaffe a Fighter now else were
Again the Germans were suspicious and took a aircraft they know, there F-4 in service were excellent, so why not buy the waponized version of F-4?
Four: for bargain price and package deal
Another Reason the Germans wanted F-4 was simple: they could use the spare parts of there F-4 fleet already operational.
and since the Luftwaffe always was run on shoe string budget, is to kill two birds with one stone...
Nebogipfel
Monthly Donor
I guess the F-15 would be also a bit expensive compared to the alternatives (I could be wrong here...) Also, chancellor Schmidt was a massive supporter of the Tornado, so difficult at best. I wonder if there is any possibility of a SAAB equipped Luftwaffe (also probably not)
Khanzeer
Banned
Why was LW looking for an unarmed recon jet in 1968 ?
Its inventory was pretty pathetic when it came to fighters
Range and payload and there are benefits to going with something that enhances your own industry. The Tornado IDS was also operational several years earlier.
Khanzeer
Banned
Can they licence produce the f18 or a version of f14 that matter
Tornado is one role plane and multirole f14/18 will reduce dependence on allies for air defence
The Tornado IDS started getting delivered to the Luftwaffe in 1979, the US Marines did not start taking deliver of the F-18 in operational squadrons until 1983 so if they F-18s they are going to have to wait a few years. The F-14 was not a multi-role fighter at that time, it was an insanely expensive fleet defense interceptor with unreliable engines. Modifying it to Luftwaffe needs will only make it that much more expensive.
Every country has their own version of pork barrel politics, and NIH... Germans even more so after the disastrous lawn dart 104 that wasn't a fit for the German environment, plus the bungs.