I've been catching up on this timeline, and I've really been enjoying it! It's easily the best thing on this website. Since it's been indicated that some sort of Prohibition is on the horizon in the United States, I was curious if Two Gun Richard Hart would make a cameo; he seems like just the sort of quirky historical footnote that would thrive in this world.
Sequel de Mayo (Cinco de Mayo, Vol. II)
- Thread starter KingSweden24
- Start date
So I forget if it was mentioned specifically but is the US going to aim for taking Key West and/or the Keys in general? Because it feels like one of those small bits they could grab as a military district with not a lot of angry locals.
Though amusingly Key West was until around 1900 (so only fifteen years past at this point) the most populous city in Florida OTL, and I don't see a big reason why that would be different. Though that also just says a lot about how underpopulated Florida was until only the past few decades.
Though amusingly Key West was until around 1900 (so only fifteen years past at this point) the most populous city in Florida OTL, and I don't see a big reason why that would be different. Though that also just says a lot about how underpopulated Florida was until only the past few decades.
The main difference between Key West and Magdalena Bay is that I expect that Key West will be kept indefinitely. The question is now whether the US will take Key West, it is how much of connecting Florida they will take.
Of the figures of that era, I think the one that interests me the most these days is Verne Miller - Huron, SD Sheriff turned hitman. Absolutely fascinating man - in some ways, very typical of his chosen profession, and in other ways ... not at all.
Underwood in particular, since he actually enjoyed positions of influence rather than being more of a gadfly like Marion Butler, yes.
You are too kind! Thank you and welcome aboard! Hope you continue to enjoy this ride.
I'd never actually heard of this guy but definitely too great not to use, especially considering his familial relations.
The Marines have already seized the Keys and, no, the CSA isn't getting them back (nor should they)
Coronado Conference
"...by train, with Antoinette in attendance as well as Charles Junior and the girls; it was the first time since the Fourth of July the whole family had gathered in one place, and the sandy beaches of Coronado Island offered the chance for the President and his whole family to wholly relax.
The Hotel Del was broadly regarded as one of America's finest establishments, synonymous with sunshine, opulence and the promise of the West. San Diego as a site for the conference to sign the peace treaty between the United States and Mexico made sense due to its proximity to the Mexican border and status as a former Mexican possession they had lost in the 1845-48 war with the United States, but the Hotel Del as its center, rather than some courthouse or government building, was not by accident. President Hearst had popularized it in the public imagination by vacationing there for Christmas with his family nearly every year, and Hughes himself had stayed there, along with California's colorful Governor Hiram Johnson, during the 1912 campaign.
It was the first peace conference that Hughes and Root had both attended personally, as Lima had been so far off and the matter with the Indian chieftains at Kansas City was regarded as too peripheral to warrant major principals from the State Department (indeed, in later years Root was criticized for sending an inexperienced group of diplomats who were perhaps too favorable to the chieftains), and their attendance was intended to impress upon the Mexicans the seriousness with which Philadelphia took the negotiation but also act as an olive branch. The Mexican Foreign Minister, Pedro Lascurain, was an impressive and refined fellow, tall and gray and courteous, who spoke outstanding English to the point that he often acted as a translator for his own colleagues. Lascurain was in many ways a Mexican mirror of Root, aristocratic and strong-minded, and he leaned heavily upon his devout Catholic faith in foregrounding his interest in exiting the war.
The financial restitution the United States was due on an annual basis remained in place, but Lascurain was, with Hughes' arrival, able to appeal to a future of "American-Mexican friendship" in negotiating down some of the mineral access rights to keep nationalists at home happy. In return, Mexico swallowed an agreement to forever promise not to interfere in the internal matters of Central American governments "or any agencies within" - in other words, Boston Fruit Company. In practice, this would be extremely hard to enforce, in Guatemala in particular, which would before long emerge as the biggest thorn in both countries' side in the region. But all things considered, the treaty signed by Hughes, Root and Lascurain in the main drawing room of the Hotel Del Coronado in front of a gaggle of photographers and other dignitaries - most prominently Senator Turner, there to represent Democratic Senate interests but very pointedly not including his colleague Cabot Lodge - was not only very light on the surrendering party, but also almost identical to the contours of the agreement Lascurain had fashioned with Root's representatives before the Reyes Putsch in Mexico City. The Mexican delegation was feted that evening, and then their yacht was escorted back by US Naval vessels to Acapulco the next day. On November 4th, 1915, Mexico had exited the war.
The celebrations back in Philadelphia were outwardly muted, but Hughes pondered the significance of the moment the entire train ride back, particularly as his train was stopped several times to inspect the tracks for traps left by Mormon terrorists in Utah or Colorado. While Mexico had never mobilized nearly as many men as the Confederacy, over half a million Mexican soldiers were thought to be spread across the various theaters in the Midlands, Texas and the East, absolutely crucial support for Confederate divisions, and over a hundred thousand more were still in Centroamerica. Between both the North and Central American theaters, Mexico had lost nearly two hundred thousand men - many to tropical diseases in the latter - in the space of two years, staggering numbers dwarfed only by the Confederate and American bloodletting.
In practical terms, this meant that the resources the United States had concentrated against Mexico could now be turned exclusively against defeating the remaining enemy in Richmond, and the considerable support Mexico had allowed the Confederacy was now no longer available for Confederate defenses..."
- American Charlemagne: The Trials and Triumphs of Charles Evans Hughes
"...Lascurain's return was marked with celebrations, though public reaction was more muted, rather simply one of relief and trepidation. Reyes promised that new elections would be held for the Legislative Assembly within six months, though skepticism abounded amongst many that elections would be held that soon, if ever. The withdrawal of American forces from Mexican ports and Chihuahua was seen as a major victory, but bandits both well-organized - such as the roaming army of Pancho Villa or the peasant guerillas of Emiliano Zapata - and scattered controlled much of the Mexican countryside north of Aguascalientes and would require months if not years to successfully crush as Mexican turned on Mexican and the bloodshed was not at an end.
Nonetheless, Maximilian felt relieved, though not in the way he had after the Caudillos had been put down. He was thirty years older, thirty years more tired now, feeling his age and creeping mortality, still shaken by in the last five years seeing Mexico fly close to the Icarian sun of revolution with the triumph of Madero, the street violence that marked his tenure, the collapse of the Mexican economy in the spring of 1913 and then a grueling, brutal industrial war unlike anything he had seen before, punctuated by an attempted putsch staged by the syndicalist left, and then a successful one executed by the military right. It was harder for him to remember things, to make clear and straightforward decisions. It was a cruel thing, to become old, and everyone had noticed. The Regency would not start in November of 1915, but the steps towards the dramatic final chapter in Maximilian's life would be taken with peace with the United States..."
- Maximilian of Mexico
"...absolute apoplexy. Mexican soldiers were, in some cases, barred from using Confederate railroads to go home, forcing them to march hundreds of miles by foot and harassed by their former comrades in arms. Violence sprang out in numerous cases as soon as peace was declared, and Mexicans fought back doggedly.
In most cases, however, they were allowed to peaceably withdraw at first, only for Confederate soldiers to get increasingly agitated as Mexican withdrawals created opportunities for American probing offensives, and by the time the weight of the Mexican Army was in Texas, things had reached a boil when the State Militia, under secret orders from Governor Ferguson, attacked a Mexican division at San Antonio and demanded they return to the front, and refused to allow them to leave the city. The Mexicans, better equipped and eager to go home, fought their way out, with nearly five thousand deaths, many civilian, before they hijacked their train and rode off to Laredo on it.
The outrage was splayed across Texan newspapers, with the State Militia and Rangers increasingly viewed as Ferguson's personal thugs and more than a little suspicion that "Fergie's Furies" were being deployed to carry out violence of intimidation at the behest of Ferguson's allies and benefactors in Richmond, a line of thinking that as Texans became increasingly enraged and resentful of Richmond's meddling, especially as news of the results of the election of 1915 revealed Vardaman's victory despite the Texas Party nearly sweeping the state's Congressional races, came to color the approach towards the Senate election due for the first week of December to either renew or end the corrupt Senator Culberson's tenure..."
- Republic Reborn
The Hotel Del was broadly regarded as one of America's finest establishments, synonymous with sunshine, opulence and the promise of the West. San Diego as a site for the conference to sign the peace treaty between the United States and Mexico made sense due to its proximity to the Mexican border and status as a former Mexican possession they had lost in the 1845-48 war with the United States, but the Hotel Del as its center, rather than some courthouse or government building, was not by accident. President Hearst had popularized it in the public imagination by vacationing there for Christmas with his family nearly every year, and Hughes himself had stayed there, along with California's colorful Governor Hiram Johnson, during the 1912 campaign.
It was the first peace conference that Hughes and Root had both attended personally, as Lima had been so far off and the matter with the Indian chieftains at Kansas City was regarded as too peripheral to warrant major principals from the State Department (indeed, in later years Root was criticized for sending an inexperienced group of diplomats who were perhaps too favorable to the chieftains), and their attendance was intended to impress upon the Mexicans the seriousness with which Philadelphia took the negotiation but also act as an olive branch. The Mexican Foreign Minister, Pedro Lascurain, was an impressive and refined fellow, tall and gray and courteous, who spoke outstanding English to the point that he often acted as a translator for his own colleagues. Lascurain was in many ways a Mexican mirror of Root, aristocratic and strong-minded, and he leaned heavily upon his devout Catholic faith in foregrounding his interest in exiting the war.
The financial restitution the United States was due on an annual basis remained in place, but Lascurain was, with Hughes' arrival, able to appeal to a future of "American-Mexican friendship" in negotiating down some of the mineral access rights to keep nationalists at home happy. In return, Mexico swallowed an agreement to forever promise not to interfere in the internal matters of Central American governments "or any agencies within" - in other words, Boston Fruit Company. In practice, this would be extremely hard to enforce, in Guatemala in particular, which would before long emerge as the biggest thorn in both countries' side in the region. But all things considered, the treaty signed by Hughes, Root and Lascurain in the main drawing room of the Hotel Del Coronado in front of a gaggle of photographers and other dignitaries - most prominently Senator Turner, there to represent Democratic Senate interests but very pointedly not including his colleague Cabot Lodge - was not only very light on the surrendering party, but also almost identical to the contours of the agreement Lascurain had fashioned with Root's representatives before the Reyes Putsch in Mexico City. The Mexican delegation was feted that evening, and then their yacht was escorted back by US Naval vessels to Acapulco the next day. On November 4th, 1915, Mexico had exited the war.
The celebrations back in Philadelphia were outwardly muted, but Hughes pondered the significance of the moment the entire train ride back, particularly as his train was stopped several times to inspect the tracks for traps left by Mormon terrorists in Utah or Colorado. While Mexico had never mobilized nearly as many men as the Confederacy, over half a million Mexican soldiers were thought to be spread across the various theaters in the Midlands, Texas and the East, absolutely crucial support for Confederate divisions, and over a hundred thousand more were still in Centroamerica. Between both the North and Central American theaters, Mexico had lost nearly two hundred thousand men - many to tropical diseases in the latter - in the space of two years, staggering numbers dwarfed only by the Confederate and American bloodletting.
In practical terms, this meant that the resources the United States had concentrated against Mexico could now be turned exclusively against defeating the remaining enemy in Richmond, and the considerable support Mexico had allowed the Confederacy was now no longer available for Confederate defenses..."
- American Charlemagne: The Trials and Triumphs of Charles Evans Hughes
"...Lascurain's return was marked with celebrations, though public reaction was more muted, rather simply one of relief and trepidation. Reyes promised that new elections would be held for the Legislative Assembly within six months, though skepticism abounded amongst many that elections would be held that soon, if ever. The withdrawal of American forces from Mexican ports and Chihuahua was seen as a major victory, but bandits both well-organized - such as the roaming army of Pancho Villa or the peasant guerillas of Emiliano Zapata - and scattered controlled much of the Mexican countryside north of Aguascalientes and would require months if not years to successfully crush as Mexican turned on Mexican and the bloodshed was not at an end.
Nonetheless, Maximilian felt relieved, though not in the way he had after the Caudillos had been put down. He was thirty years older, thirty years more tired now, feeling his age and creeping mortality, still shaken by in the last five years seeing Mexico fly close to the Icarian sun of revolution with the triumph of Madero, the street violence that marked his tenure, the collapse of the Mexican economy in the spring of 1913 and then a grueling, brutal industrial war unlike anything he had seen before, punctuated by an attempted putsch staged by the syndicalist left, and then a successful one executed by the military right. It was harder for him to remember things, to make clear and straightforward decisions. It was a cruel thing, to become old, and everyone had noticed. The Regency would not start in November of 1915, but the steps towards the dramatic final chapter in Maximilian's life would be taken with peace with the United States..."
- Maximilian of Mexico
"...absolute apoplexy. Mexican soldiers were, in some cases, barred from using Confederate railroads to go home, forcing them to march hundreds of miles by foot and harassed by their former comrades in arms. Violence sprang out in numerous cases as soon as peace was declared, and Mexicans fought back doggedly.
In most cases, however, they were allowed to peaceably withdraw at first, only for Confederate soldiers to get increasingly agitated as Mexican withdrawals created opportunities for American probing offensives, and by the time the weight of the Mexican Army was in Texas, things had reached a boil when the State Militia, under secret orders from Governor Ferguson, attacked a Mexican division at San Antonio and demanded they return to the front, and refused to allow them to leave the city. The Mexicans, better equipped and eager to go home, fought their way out, with nearly five thousand deaths, many civilian, before they hijacked their train and rode off to Laredo on it.
The outrage was splayed across Texan newspapers, with the State Militia and Rangers increasingly viewed as Ferguson's personal thugs and more than a little suspicion that "Fergie's Furies" were being deployed to carry out violence of intimidation at the behest of Ferguson's allies and benefactors in Richmond, a line of thinking that as Texans became increasingly enraged and resentful of Richmond's meddling, especially as news of the results of the election of 1915 revealed Vardaman's victory despite the Texas Party nearly sweeping the state's Congressional races, came to color the approach towards the Senate election due for the first week of December to either renew or end the corrupt Senator Culberson's tenure..."
- Republic Reborn
Looking forward to finding out who the replacement Texas Senator is. $5 they're named Sam.
I would read the hell out of a Mexican-flavored "Anabasis."
the Cinqo-verse version of The Warriors is a very different film
But yes, that would make a fascinating novel or film!!!!!!
I hope so. I do love Ol Sam Johnson
It's either Johnson or Rayburn lol
I was thinking, for some of the Mexican soldiers, it might be easier to surrender *just* to get into United States and then get shipped home *that* way.
And thank you for reminding us of the Mormon Terrorists, if things had gone boom, I wonder whether Hughes's VP would run the war (or the subsequent peace) any differently.
(Though the idea that you could work your way through Hughes's Cabinet and most of *both* parties Congressional Leadership before you'd find someone who would run the war *that* much differently. In that regard, this is much more like WWII for OTL USA)
And thank you for reminding us of the Mormon Terrorists, if things had gone boom, I wonder whether Hughes's VP would run the war (or the subsequent peace) any differently.
(Though the idea that you could work your way through Hughes's Cabinet and most of *both* parties Congressional Leadership before you'd find someone who would run the war *that* much differently. In that regard, this is much more like WWII for OTL USA)
I really loved these new chapters!
Thank you, KingSweden24!
As a note: I wonder what will happen to this man, who I could easily see his parents escape to union:
en.m.wikipedia.org
I easily see him as the Liberal Mayor of Chicago who is hated by both organised labour and white supremacists.
Thank you, KingSweden24!
As a note: I wonder what will happen to this man, who I could easily see his parents escape to union:
Oscar Stanton De Priest - Wikipedia
Between Two Chiles
"...only so long that a new constitution and elections could be delayed. Barros Luco thus proposed, and Alessandri crucially agreed, that the best bet for the Santiago regime was the present the institutional legitimacy of their government with military force: the new Constitutional assembly would be formed at the same time that anti-Surista attacks began across the Lontue River, ideally in early October.
On paper, the Provisional Republic had a great deal of advantages despite their instability. They were considerably more popular with the general public than the Old Republic of Aldunate and Ochagavia, though the Treaty of Lima had dented that credibility a great deal. The majority of the army and its officer corps had remained north of the Lontue, and Altamirano, Grove and the others were regarded as talented generals. Despite the Socialist revolt in much of the country's north, which had now held Copiapo successfully for months, Recabarren had an informal truce with Santiago and indeed many of his most talented men had volunteered to head south, as they viewed Alessandri as a man they could deal with but Aldunate as certain death.
Of course, advantages on paper are just that, and the Provisionals, terming themselves the Colorados in traditional South American fashion against the Blanco Old Republicans, nonetheless had considerable problems. The first was that the Blancos, by virtue of controlling most of Chile south of Curico (though in many places their control was more in theory than in practice), thus controlled a supermajority of Chile's most productive farmland and thus had controlled the harvest the previous May and spent all of the winter of 1915 building their stores, and been prudent in who they rotated into military duties along the excellent defensive terrain around Curico to allow other farmers to get the spring planting done. As October rolled around, then, and spring thaw came, the Blancos were preparing to once again take advantage of their food dividend while the Colorados remained reliant on fish or imports from Argentina or the Red Cross, and armies, after all, march on their stomachs.
The other major advantage was that Blanco soldiers often fought with a ferocity and intensity that the Colorados could not match. While Chilean anti-leftist exiles often claimed in later decades that they fought "with God on their sides" [1], there was some truth to the idea that the Blancos had much more to lose and were probably more committed to their cause at a level only the Socialists equaled. Many Blancos came from more violent, rural backgrounds who had fought in the Andes or at Iquique, and believed wholeheartedly that a victory for enemy meant a victory for "Alemism" and its affiliated secularism and socialism. Stories proliferated of Colorado gangs burning churches or hanging priests in between shaving the heads of pious women and plundering the homes of Santiago's elite; almost all of these stories were false, but spoke to the deep fears of Surismo about what awaited them. Colorados, meanwhile, simply hated the old regime and fought out of their own fears, but there was no world they loved that they were fighting to defend but rather more esoteric pursuits.
The landscape of Chile also was excellent for the defender, with the Andes and Coastal Ranges both funneling attackers in the Central Valley into a concentrated area, and the attempts to break through across the Lontue around Curico gave an initial preview of what the coming civil war would be like. Heavily casualties for the attackers, brutal reprisals against civilians suspected of being guerillas, and men dying as much of disease and starvation as of bullets or artillery fire. The breakthrough did come in early November after nearly a month, and Altamirano's men pushed close to the Rio Lircay by early December, where they paused to regroup before trying to drive over the river towards Talca, expecting similar difficulties with that attack.
Back in Santiago, the initial campaign showed positives but nonetheless major issues in discipline, morale and tactics. Alessandri's Constitutional Assembly was announced on November 20th and promised a new governing document to be finished within four months and elections by May, elections which Alessandri was expected to win - his celebrity and cachet with the troops was thought to be galvanizing for Colorados. Altamirano thus made a fateful decision: under the notion that the Blanco government was, as far as the United States was concerned, an illegal rebellion, he would ask the United States for explicit aid in arms and materiel in order to defeat Aldunate's armies from Talca to Concepcion to Puerto Montt..."
- Between Two Chiles
[1] The attitudes of Chilean rightists in the Socialist years are going to be super healthy, in case
On paper, the Provisional Republic had a great deal of advantages despite their instability. They were considerably more popular with the general public than the Old Republic of Aldunate and Ochagavia, though the Treaty of Lima had dented that credibility a great deal. The majority of the army and its officer corps had remained north of the Lontue, and Altamirano, Grove and the others were regarded as talented generals. Despite the Socialist revolt in much of the country's north, which had now held Copiapo successfully for months, Recabarren had an informal truce with Santiago and indeed many of his most talented men had volunteered to head south, as they viewed Alessandri as a man they could deal with but Aldunate as certain death.
Of course, advantages on paper are just that, and the Provisionals, terming themselves the Colorados in traditional South American fashion against the Blanco Old Republicans, nonetheless had considerable problems. The first was that the Blancos, by virtue of controlling most of Chile south of Curico (though in many places their control was more in theory than in practice), thus controlled a supermajority of Chile's most productive farmland and thus had controlled the harvest the previous May and spent all of the winter of 1915 building their stores, and been prudent in who they rotated into military duties along the excellent defensive terrain around Curico to allow other farmers to get the spring planting done. As October rolled around, then, and spring thaw came, the Blancos were preparing to once again take advantage of their food dividend while the Colorados remained reliant on fish or imports from Argentina or the Red Cross, and armies, after all, march on their stomachs.
The other major advantage was that Blanco soldiers often fought with a ferocity and intensity that the Colorados could not match. While Chilean anti-leftist exiles often claimed in later decades that they fought "with God on their sides" [1], there was some truth to the idea that the Blancos had much more to lose and were probably more committed to their cause at a level only the Socialists equaled. Many Blancos came from more violent, rural backgrounds who had fought in the Andes or at Iquique, and believed wholeheartedly that a victory for enemy meant a victory for "Alemism" and its affiliated secularism and socialism. Stories proliferated of Colorado gangs burning churches or hanging priests in between shaving the heads of pious women and plundering the homes of Santiago's elite; almost all of these stories were false, but spoke to the deep fears of Surismo about what awaited them. Colorados, meanwhile, simply hated the old regime and fought out of their own fears, but there was no world they loved that they were fighting to defend but rather more esoteric pursuits.
The landscape of Chile also was excellent for the defender, with the Andes and Coastal Ranges both funneling attackers in the Central Valley into a concentrated area, and the attempts to break through across the Lontue around Curico gave an initial preview of what the coming civil war would be like. Heavily casualties for the attackers, brutal reprisals against civilians suspected of being guerillas, and men dying as much of disease and starvation as of bullets or artillery fire. The breakthrough did come in early November after nearly a month, and Altamirano's men pushed close to the Rio Lircay by early December, where they paused to regroup before trying to drive over the river towards Talca, expecting similar difficulties with that attack.
Back in Santiago, the initial campaign showed positives but nonetheless major issues in discipline, morale and tactics. Alessandri's Constitutional Assembly was announced on November 20th and promised a new governing document to be finished within four months and elections by May, elections which Alessandri was expected to win - his celebrity and cachet with the troops was thought to be galvanizing for Colorados. Altamirano thus made a fateful decision: under the notion that the Blanco government was, as far as the United States was concerned, an illegal rebellion, he would ask the United States for explicit aid in arms and materiel in order to defeat Aldunate's armies from Talca to Concepcion to Puerto Montt..."
- Between Two Chiles
[1] The attitudes of Chilean rightists in the Socialist years are going to be super healthy, in case
There's probably going to be some sort of low-level insurgency against the Socialist Republic for years if not decades, especially as Chile is tailor-made for redoubts and can be very hard to pacify in the south (see - the Spanish taking a century or so to fully defeat the Mapuche).
Oh 100%, and especially once Brazil goes Integralist it’ll take on more of that kind of flavor.
Expect something along these lines:
Fatherland and Liberty - Wikipedia
I know you are flipping South America and East Asia, so this is apparently the Philippines and Mindanao...Oh 100%, and especially once Brazil goes Integralist it’ll take on more of that kind of flavor.
Expect something along these lines:
Fatherland and Liberty - Wikipedia
Also, as much as WWI technology leads to *very* defendable lines in places like Virginia and Argentina's Mesopotamia, the Chilean mountains make this *worse* than OTL Western Front. (At the level of needing 5 or 6 to 1 to have a decent chance...)
Wondering which nation will achieve widespread stability first, CSA or Chile...
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I hope this idea of mine is goodI really loved these new chapters!
Thank you, KingSweden24!
As a note: I wonder what will happen to this man, who I could easily see his parents escape to union:
I easily see him as the Liberal Mayor of Chicago who is hated by both organised labour and white supremacists.Oscar Stanton De Priest - Wikipedia