What if Himmler attempted to remove Hitler from power?

Just watched the latest Mark Felton video where he goes into detail on the (unofficial) secret discussions by Himmler throughout the war to make peace with the Western Allies and take control for himself.

Do you believe this is possible? Even if he is able to place Hitler under arrest (it is mentioned he would be under house arrest...like that couldn't backfire) do you think he could hold onto power? Would we get a Nazi civil war?

How does Himmler handle the war in the East? Is the holocaust any different? Say around 42/43.

I guess on the flip side let's say he tries and fails, how does this effect Hitler? Mass purges nobody safe?
 
He didn't even try such a thing when the Reich was coming down around everybody's ears, so it's hard to imagine him really contemplating a revolt even earlier, let alone in 1942 and '43 when it was far from clear (at least to the Germans) that the war was lost. If he went crazy and tried it for some reason I guess some higher SS figures would follow, but most probably wouldn't (why commit suicide?) and most importantly the *army* wouldn't, and Himmler's coup would get squashed very quickly. Himmler certainly is executed and possibly very brutally. So much for 'treue Heinrich.' I don't know if the SS would have actually been broken up and formally dissolved, maybe with the Waffen units being integrated into the Wehrmacht, or whether it would have just been placed under new management and significantly stricter oversight. In that case, who would have replaced Himmler? 'Gestapo' Muller? Kaltenbrunner? Heydrich is presumably too close to Himmler to get the job, assuming he isn't assassinated ITTL and assuming he doesn't participate in the coup, or at the very least isn't suspected of participating in the coup.
 
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TheSpectacledCloth

Gone Fishin'
Unless Himmler had a death wish (or was just plain crazy), he would've never attempted to actually overthrow Hitler while the latter was still breathing.

That would be the dumbest thing he could possibly do. The only thing that a coup attempt would lead to is him being berated by Freisler, and then getting hung with wire.

Heydrich would already be dead by this point and Mueller wouldn't side with Himmler, yet he doesn't have the cache to take over the SS.

Hitler would likely choose Kaltenbrunner, who 1000% would side with the Fuhrer against Himmler, as the new Reichsfuhrer.
 
SS was loyal to Hitler, there were very few that were personally loyal to Himmler, so if he moves against Hitler, his own men will turn on him. He just wasn't the kind of person to inspire fierce loyalty.
 
Himmler was very loyal to Hitler. He never would think such idiotic move. He was many many things but he couldn't be called as suicidal idiot. Even Himmler would understand if he tries coup d'etat, he will be caught quickly and executed.

And what point even for Himmler would be turn against Hitler? They shared lot of same ideas altough Himmler might had been much more extreme. But them hadn't such base differences what would cause Himmler launching coup. And no one would even support him. In 1942 Hitler was yet really popular so such thing would be unthinkable. And probably later too. Himmler might try coup after Hitler's death but not sooner.
 
The whole reason Himmler was so cautious and frankly timid when it came to his contacts with the Western Allies and certain members of the Schwarze Kapelle (Popitz and Langbehn, who met him in August 1943 and tentatively tried to win him over) was because he knew that if he openly tried to overthrow Hitler he'd be finished. There is some evidence that he was deliberately negligent when it came to persecuting the Schwarze Kapelle before the 20 July Coup (though he was unaware of Stauffenberg and Co...who also wanted to kill him), but he never dared try to get rid of Hitler.

The SS was not a private army that would obey Himmler no matter what. Like the Wehrmacht it was loyal to Hitler above all. And the Reichsheini knew this. He had absurd and vile beliefs, but as a political operator he was canny and not a fool. Also in 1942 the Reich's position is still very good. Himmler's attempts to detach himself Hitler in 1945 were timid at best. He only dared to meet Bernadotte and try to get an armistice with Eisenhower when he was certain that Hitler would not make it out of Berlin.
 
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What evidence?

In February 1943 Himmler refused to act against Admiral Wilhelm Canaris after Müller presented him with evidence that the Abwehr chief had ties to the resistance. Rather than act, Müller was ordered not to pursue the case. To summarise, in late 1942 the German customs police arrested an export merchant called Major Wilhelm Schmidhuber, who worked for the Abwehr. His crime was illegal currency transactions. Canaris refused to cover for him, so under interrogation Schmidhuber hinted that the Abwehr had tried to use the Vatican as an intermediary to contact the British in winter 1939/1940. The Gestapo was brought in, and assigned an officer called Franz Xaver Sonderegger to the case. Sonderegger investigated Hans von Dohnanyi, a jurist who worked for the Abwehr and a close associate of Major General Hans Oster, the true motor behind the resistance circle in the Abwehr. While Schmidhuber’s illegal business activities were largely motivated by personal profit, Dohnanyi had used him to smuggle Jews out of Germany. Moreover, in 1939 Dohnanyi had hired Josef Müller back to try and use the Vatican as an intermediary for clandestine negotiations with the British. Sonderegger claimed in his report that Canaris had been the mastermind behind these activities. But instead of passing it on to Hitler, Himmler passed on the secret police’s findings to the Wehrmacht judiciary. Dohnanyi was arrested, and Oster removed from his post. This crippled the resistance in the Abwehr, but the agency itself was spared for the time being and Canaris remained in command. Later Himmler also ignored evidence from his own agency that Canaris was deceiving the Reich leadership by giving them false intelligence about Italy's loyalty to the Axis following the overthrow of Mussolini.

Moreover, Himmler met Johannes Popitz, Prussian finance minister and member of the conservative resistance, and Carl Langbehn, a lawyer who was a personal friend of Himmler and also had ties to the resistance, on 26 August 1943. The meeting is mentioned by Ulrich von Hassell, a German diplomat and potential foreign minister for the Schwarze Kapelle, in his diary. Popitz and Langbehn were frustrated by the resistance's inability to win over a major commander. Prior to the meeting, Olbricht brought Tresckow and Popitz together for a chat, at which Langbehn was also present. The German historian Peter Hoffmann, a specialist on the history of the resistance, writes that Tresckow appears to have given the idea of approaching Himmler his blessing. Marie-Lousie- Sarre, who worked on the staff of Army Group Centre and occasionally served as a courier for the resistance, recalls that Field Marshal Fedor von Bock considered a Wehrmacht coup to be doomed to failure without SS support and stated he would only act if the conspirators managed to enlist Himmler.

It's a bit ambiguous what was discussed, but Popitz appears to have tried to persuade Himmler that peace talks needed to be conducted with the Allies and that changes in government would be needed. Langbehn, who wanted him to be more frank, was disappointed by this. However, Karl Wolff promised to arrange another meeting. Popitz turned to General Olbricht to enquire about which general could be entrusted with the leadership of the Wehrmacht in the event of a coup. Olbricht suggested Field Marshal Erwin von Witzleben, who had been one of the leading figures in the September conspiracy during the Sudeten Crisis. Witzleben declared he was ready to assist if Himmler approached him on his own initiative and committed himself.

Popitz informed Hassell about his meeting with Himmler. According to Popitz Himmler hadn’t committed himself but shown an open mind. Hassell suggested a meeting between him and Wolff. In a diary entry Hassell expressed his distaste for the idea of working with the SS and stated it could only be a temporary solution but noted that any means were justified to avert catastrophe.

As Hoffmann writes, the attempt to enlist Himmler, however tentatively, took place because the resistance lacked resolute leadership or a general willing and able to act. Oster had been dismissed, which deprived the resistance group of the Abwehr of its engine. Canaris would assist the resistance and screen its activities, but not take direct action. Beck was ill, and in any event commanded no troops. Witzleben was no political leader, and while Tresckow had the drive and energy, he was far from the centre of power. Olbricht held a crucial post in Berlin, but lacked the initiative and in any case had no command authority without Fromm’s approval. Thus, the attempt to reach out to Himmler occurred at a time when the conservative opposition was beset by setbacks and crippled by paralysis.

Regardless, after the meeting Langbehn travelled to Switzerland to meet Allied representatives. There he met a representative of Dulles. Himmler appears to have been aware of his mission. However, upon his return, Langbehn was arrested by the Gestapo. This didn't lead to a full-on purge though. Hassell presumed that the Gestapo and Müller acted on their own initiative, and Himmler was covering his tracks. Hassell assumed that the Gestapo had been able to intercept the message of a British agent, which described Langbehn as Himmler’s confidante in Switzerland and further noted that Himmler understood Germany’s situation and was ready to negotiate. As a result, Himmler had been forced to sacrifice Langbehn to clear himself of accusations of treason. Post-20 July Himmler claimed it had been a 'sting operation'...and never bothered to say why he hadn't done about the rest of the conservative resistance after Langbehn's arrest.

It's important to stress that there's no evidence that Himmler and the SS had any foreknowledge of the 20 July plot. Indeed, Stauffenberg and his comrades had previously aborted an earlier assassination plot because Himmler and Göring hadn't been there and they'd wanted to blow them up, too. They were in the dark about the conspiracy in the Replacement Army. Nebe was obviously part of the conspiracy, but thus far no evidence has surfaced that he was secretly informing Himmler (Nebe remained passive on 20 July, too). The fact that the bomb exploded represented a massive security failure on the part of the SS, and Kaltenbrunner was a fanatical Hitler loyalist.

Besides, the Valkyrie orders stipulated that SS installations were to be occupied, SS and police leaders arrested and the SS disarmed. So it's probably safe to presume that Himmler's contacts with the part of the resistance that was willing to utilise him died in late 1943. It's pertinent to note that while the conservative resistance as a whole was anti-democratic and authoritarian, Popitz was very much on the far-right, as was Hassell, and seems to have been marginalised by the time the coup occured.

I wrote an essay about this that discusses this whole affair in more detail.
 
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I agree it seems very unlikely Himmler makes a move against Hitler but then why all the talks?

Would he try something if say Hitler dies of a heart attack early on in the war? All of Goring, Himmler, Goebbels,Borman hated each other right?
 
but then why all the talks?
He was concerned about his own survival (political and personal) after the war (especially once it became obvious Hitler was going to die) and hoped Germany could join with the WAllies against the USSR or at least be allowed a free hand to fight them. He didn’t have the same loyalty to Goring as he did Hitler so with Hitler gone he almost certainly would try and take over either immediately or after some time has passed.
 
He was concerned about his own survival (political and personal) after the war (especially once it became obvious Hitler was going to die) and hoped Germany could join with the WAllies against the USSR or at least be allowed a free hand to fight them. He didn’t have the same loyalty to Goring as he did Hitler so with Hitler gone he almost certainly would try and take over either immediately or after some time has passed.

Even in the early 40s?

Sure a fantasy where the Wallies join the Nazis to defeat the Soviets is great for him but wouldn't it be likely Hitler would have him executed if he found out about the secret negotiations?
 
I agree it seems very unlikely Himmler makes a move against Hitler but then why all the talks?

Would he try something if say Hitler dies of a heart attack early on in the war? All of Goring, Himmler, Goebbels,Borman hated each other right?

Post-Hitler coup indeed would be more likely than him trying go directly against Hitler. Whole idea do that is about same if Stalin would had turned against Lenin. It would be just so extremely stupid.
 
Even in the early 40s?

Sure a fantasy where the Wallies join the Nazis to defeat the Soviets is great for him but wouldn't it be likely Hitler would have him executed if he found out about the secret negotiations?
We could get an idea of Hitler's attitude to Himmler doing secret negotiations ITTL from how well he responded to Hess's defection OTL.
 
Even in the early 40s?
IOTL Himmler only reached out to the Allies in 1943 once the tide turned against Germany if that’s what you’re asking. IOTL in 1945 when Hitler found out about Himmler’s negotiation attempts through a BBC broadcast after deposing Goring he ordered his arrest and said it was the worst betrayal he had ever known.
 

Garrison

Donor
I agree it seems very unlikely Himmler makes a move against Hitler but then why all the talks?

Would he try something if say Hitler dies of a heart attack early on in the war? All of Goring, Himmler, Goebbels,Borman hated each other right?
The talks were held because Himmler still hoped that the Nazi regime could be saved. If he could have found a formula that allowed for peace in the west Hitler would have been all for it. Any deal in the east would just have been a temporary ceasefire. Himmler wanted to save his own skin but he also thought he could save Hitler and Germany.
 
Towards the end of the war Hitler was open to negotiations and did discuss it with his inner circle so it wasn’t like Himmler was acting completely on his own without Hitler’s permission. He just didn’t keep him constantly informed especially once it became apparent Hitler was going to kill himself.
 
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