Just need weapon from Western and Eastern Block
Leopard for Kalimantan theater and BMP-3F and Khrizantema for Papua and Nusa Tenggara
Indonesia ATL: The Presidency of Try Sutrisno (1997-)
- Thread starter GSD310
- Start date
Leopard for Kalimantan theater and BMP-3F and Khrizantema for Papua and Nusa Tenggara
1 is definitely a no go. 2 I have considered. But actually given that 1 and 2 are upgrade of a Soviet tank, this is why I'm wondering why not an actual Soviet tank.
3, both the Spanish and French versions, I have also considered and a strong contender because of the previous Indonesian interest.
Have also considered Leopard 1 (slightly too heavy), Type-74 (Japan can't export weapons), and the Tanque Argentino Mediano (If going for a long shot pick).
Hmmm...so use the BMP-3 as a tank? Khrizantema is a tank, the wiki article I'm reading is saying it's an anti-tank?
1. T-90 or MBT-2000 only this kind of type worthed for Papua and Nusa Tenggara for Army
2. The true worthed Diesel Submarine only Type209, Type 214, Type 216, Scorpene and Kilo. IMHO Germany Diesel Submarine is the best for this unless French truly give total Reverse Engineering for Scorpene. The performance Scorpene still lacked against Type 212, Type 214 and Type 216
3. French and Spain have advanced naval technology but Spain truly use too much US technology for their naval weaponry. French majority use Thales snd MBDA technology for their ship. So Reverse Engineering possible
Dude it' s better you acquire Marder 1A3 than Leopard 1 and Type 74
Yup for marine their doctrine only attack beach so they truly do not need MBT. BMP-3 for Amphibious and Khrizantema anti tank for Australian Abrams
Last edited:
Hello,
Perhaps this tank could be used, it weighs 37 tonnes and has a decent gun. They are being decommissioned in France...
Main Battle Tank AMX-30
The AMX-30 was from 1960 to the 1990s the French Main Battle Tank, ultimately replaced by the Leclerc.
tank-afv.com
Errr.....that had been already suggested by me....Hello,
Perhaps this tank could be used, it weighs 37 tonnes and has a decent gun. They are being decommissioned in France...
Main Battle Tank AMX-30
The AMX-30 was from 1960 to the 1990s the French Main Battle Tank, ultimately replaced by the Leclerc.
@GSD310 response was....
255: The 2003 G-8 Summit Part III
2nd June 2003:
The skies were green and the weather pleasant as President Try Sutrisno stood and watched the G-8 leaders take their photo. Dressed in his suit, tie and peci for the occasion, Try waited his turn with all of the other invitees.
“Fancy yourself standing up there one day, Mr. President?” asked the voice behind him tapping him on the shoulder.
Try turned around and found himself shaking hands with President of Ukraine Leonid Kuchma.
“Just trying to muddle my way through at the moment, Mr. President”, Try replied.
“Isn’t that always the case?” said Kuchma before going on to say a line that Try knew was Kuchma’s favorite “It’s only a multipolar world for those aspiring to be “poles”, the rest of us have to make do with multi-vectorism.”
An usher told the G-8 Invitees that it was their turn to join in the photograph. Try walked with Kuchma, the latter telling him that Ukraine had applied to the NAM for its observer status to be upgraded to a membership. Try said that Indonesia would welcome that as he took his position for the official photograph.
When the photographs were finished, the invitees were keen to get some informal facetime with the G-8 leaders. Try made eye contact with Prime Minister of the United Kingdom Gordon Brown who looked like he wanted to say something. But Try's attention would be distracted by an elderly man wearing long billowing robes a keffiyeh on his head. Try approached him and allowed the older man to hold on to his arm. The older man’s aide moved towards him but the older man signalled him not to come closer. and allow him to walk with Try.
“There are cameras about, Mr. President”, said Crown Prince of Saudi Arabia Abdullah “I hope this doesn’t cause a misunderstanding with Tehran.”
“Indonesia being friends with Saudi Arabia doesn’t mean it’s becoming the enemy of Iran” Try said “Just as Indonesia becoming friends with Iran doesn’t mean that it’s becoming the enemy of Saudi Arabia.”
Abdullah tried to pass off the Aramco contractors taking a long time to return to Indonesia and the complaints about Indonesia’s BAKIN keeping surveillance on LIPIA as misunderstandings as a result of “others in Riyadh”. Despite apologizing however, Abdullah made the argument that Saudi Arabia had not experienced a terrorist attack after 9/11, this despite the government having not taken “harsh measures” such as those in Indonesia or Egypt against suspected terrorists.
“I hope one does not have to wait until they are struck with a terrorist attack to begin taking action, Your Royal Highness”, Try said “And secondly, I know you are not as pro-American as the King and you want to show your independence from the United States but not taking a decisive stance, not taking a decisive action against those claiming to act on behalf of our faith is not the way to go. If anything, Your Royal Highness, taking action will give you that independence to chart your own way.”
Abdullah was silent as he thought things through as he and Try continued on their walk.
“Coming from someone who has taken said decisive stance and action and has gone on to buy Russian weapons and positioned themselves one step away from joining a bloc of emerging economies, this is a point worth considering”, Abdullah said “But what can I do concretely, Mr. President?”
“What you do within your own borders are your concern, Your Royal Highness”, replied Try.
“Perhaps Saudi Arabia can provide aid to Afghanistan?” enquired Abdullah.
“Well, I regret to say Your Royal Highness that the Iranians have a headstart there”, Try replied.
There was a flash of anger in Abdullah’s eyes but Try knew what he was doing: he wanted Saudi Arabia and Iran to compete with each other in fighting extremism.
“But perhaps there are other ways to help”, Try said “Perhaps you’re strategically located to apply pressure on them and tell President Aziz Khan that Pakistan would have more credibility if they made a real effort at making sure there are no Al Qaeda elements hiding in Pakistan rather than making a claim that there are no terrorists and expecting everyone to trust them based on that.”
Try and Abdullah parted ways as they arrived back at the summit venue. The plenary session, led by President of France Alain Juppe, discussed the possibility of forming a forum discuss matters related to the global economy. To the laughter of those in attendance, President of United States John McCain and President of Russia Yevgeny Primakov said that this forum should not be the G-8; the former arguing that the forum needs to have permanent membership instead of permanent members plus those the year’s chair feel like inviting, the latter saying that the G-8 and BRIC are separate organizations. The meeting responded more positively to Prime Minister of Canada Paul Martin’s suggestion that such a forum should consist of the world’s largest economies.
Finding the world’s foremost economic powers debating and arguing, Try got bored and though he kept watching things unfold in front of him, he found himself listening behind him to the front row of the Indonesian delegation debating about what Primakov had told him the previous day. Minister of Defense and Security Wiranto was all for buying weapons from Iraq if it could meant a “bargain” could be had while Minister of Economics and National Development Planning Dorodjatun Kuntjoro-Jakti said that this could “risk everything” as far as the West's response was concerned. Minister of Foreign Affairs Marzuki Darusman’s stance was somewhere in between of Wiranto and Dorodjatun's/
“What if we keep Iraq as a card in our back pocket for now? All things considered, it’s very unlikely there’ll be any regime change over there soon” weighed in State Secretary Edi Sudrajat “Only and if only things become dire and desperate that we reach into our back pocket and we use that card.”
There were murmurs of agreement from Marzuki, Wiranto, and Dorodjatun. Try himself also agreed with what Edi said.
It was after lunch that Try, accompanied by Marzuki Darusman and Edi Sudrajat, went to have his meeting with Prime Minister of Italy Francesco Rutelli, the latter being accompanied by Minister of Foreign Affairs Piero Fassino. Try and Rutelli talked closer economic ties, with Try asking for Italy’s assistance to help Indonesian coffee producers and exporters fulfill EU imported coffee standards. Rutelli in turn asked for the Indonesian government to facilitate motorcycle manufacturer Piaggio’s application to open a factory and for insurance provider Generali to begin operations in Indonesia, saying that the two respective companies see Indonesia as a bright investment prospects.
Rutelli then went on to speak more strategically. Rutelli that Italy and Indonesia both share a close relations with Iran and thanked Indonesia for doing its part. Try said that both Italy and Indonesia must continue to build closer relations with Iran to create a more conducive international environment. Rutelli expressed his desire of realizing an international gathering which takes “Dialogue Among Civilizations” as its theme, dialogue among civilizations being an idea put forward and espoused by President of Iran Muhammad Khatami. Try expressed his support, saying that Khatami having to leave office in slightly more than 2 years is a “natural deadline” before which this event can be held.
The conversation went on to other topics. Marzuki asked for Italy’s point of view on the “Humanitarian Intervention” in Yugoslavia, whereupon Fassino provided an account of Italy’s involvement, saying that much like in 1999, allowed the United States and its coalition to use Italian air bases. Italian military personnel had not been involved in the ground invasion but that they have now been deployed now that Montenegro has been liberated to help maintain security and provide aid on the ground. Rutelli then quipped that while strategically and security-wise Italy has aligned itself with the United States, it sees itself as being economically tied to and supporting the EU, with the intention of helping it become an economic power and, in turn, leverage that for geopolitical purposes.
Rutelli then asked Try whether there were any Italian-made military equipment that Indonesia might be interested in, half-jokingly saying that the Australians “don’t have any leverage here” to attempt to prevent a sale from happening. Try said that he was interested in the 2 Assad-Class corvettes that remains out of the 6 which Italy had produced for Iraq in the 80s and of which 4 had been purchased by Malaysia. Rutelli confirmed that this was the message he got from the Ministry of Defence.
From Rutelli, Try went to a G-8 Business Summit event attended by businessmen from the G-8 countries where he delivered a speech about Indonesia’s economy and promoted it as a great place for investment. Try also spoke about the infrastructure projects that are under way in Indonesia, joking that contrary to “perception”, his interest is not just in acquiring weapons.
En route to his next meeting, Try found himself standing in front of a television broadcasting a CNN interview of Prime Minister of Malaysia Najib Razak. Najib said that the procurement of MBTs and aircraft which Malaysia made two days prior was a sign of Malaysia’s independence when it comes to strategic matters and that Malaysia has taken such a step in response to those with “hegemonic aspirations” in the region. When asked who has these hegemonic aspirations, Najib only said that “it cannot be those from whom we have procured these military equipments”.
Edi saw Try’s eyes narrow in anger at the sight of Najib saying all this though after a few moments composing himself, he began to walk to his next meeting. Edi tagged out for this meeting as Minister of Defense and Security Wiranto tagged in.
Prime Minister of France Jean Pierre Rafarrin and Minister of Defense Michele Alliot-Marie were apologetic that Juppe had not attended the meeting; saying that he was meeting with McCain because the latter will be departing after the gala dinner that night. Try expressed his understanding and expressed Indonesia’s support to the idea put forward by Juppe that there should be an international forum to discuss the global economy.
Rafarrin himself had other things on his agenda and was keen to get down the business. While thanking Indonesia for its “continued faith” in French military equipment, Rafarrin wondered whether he could interest Indonesia in further products. At Rafarrin’s cue, Alliot-Marie then proceded to sound like a spokeswoman for French defense industry though there were two “products” in particular that caught Try and Wiranto’s eyes.
The first was the AMX-30 tanks which France had begun to phase out from its Army. Try’s mind immediately went back to when he was Deputy Army Chief of Staff (1985-1986) and there was some talk about purchasing this for ABRI. Alliot-Marie put on a hard sell, saying that she is aware that Indonesia was on the lookout for something not as heavy as an MBT but not as light as an AMX-13. Wiranto countered and asked for a repeat and volume discount because Indonesia intended this to be a “quantity” purchase. Seeing Rafarrin and Alliot-Marie a bit taken aback, Try apologized on Wiranto’s behalf but in a way which showed that he approved of what Wiranto was asking for. Rafarrin promised to take this under consideration.
The second one was regarding an aircraft. While the Dassault Rafale was pitched to them, it was the SEPECAT Jaguar which got Try and Wiranto’s attention though not for technical reasons. Rafarrin said that “the other nation” involved in the production of SEPECAT Jaguar was willing to assist regarding the payment arrangements of the Jaguar should Indonesia wish to make the procurement.
For the moment however, Wiranto and Alliat-Marie signed an agreement which made official Indonesia’s purchase of another 50 VAB APCs and 6 Master-T Radar fixed units. Of the 6 radars, 2 will be assembled by PT. Len, Indonesia’s state-owned electronics enterprise. Cameras were on hand as Wiranto and Alliat-Marie signed the agreement and shook hands with each other while Try and Rafarrin stood behind them applauding.
After more handshakes and Rafarrin reminding Try not to miss the gala dinner in just a few hours before leaving, Try huddled together with Marzuki and Wiranto.
“If I may, Mr. Minister of Defense and Security”, Marzuki began “Which other nation was involved with the production of the aircraft that France just offered to us?”
“The United Kingdom, Mr. Minister of Foreign Affairs”, Wiranto replied.
Try looked thoughtful.
“The United Kingdom…”, Try began “Each time I’ve seen and bumped into him here, Prime Minister Brown’s been looking at me like there’s a whole load of things he wants to talk about…and now we find out that the United Kingdom wants to help with the payment arrangement if we’re interested in the Jaguar…”
“Well now that you’ve said that he’s been looking at you like that, Mr. President”, said Marzuki “I’m very much interested to hear what the United Kingdom has to say.”
---
In OTL, Ukraine is a NAM Observer.
Try and Kuchma need no introduction to each other because they have already met before https://www.antarafoto.com/fr/view/1963473/wapres-try-sutrisno-cenderamata-presiden-ukrania
In OTL, Crown Prince Abdullah was by this time the dominant figure in Saudi politics because King Fahd is ill and he has been described as being less pro-US than King Fahd http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/255097.stm
The ITTL multipolar moment provides him with a more conducive environment to indulge his inclination to act independently of the US. Post 9/11, he’s been unenthusiastic about taking decisive action against potential terrorist elements in Saudi Arabia. Any terrorist incidents post-2001 are butterflied away which only contributs to Abdullah being even less inclined. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents_in_Saudi_Arabia#2001
ITTL’s G-20 being discussed here.
As in OTL, Italy maintains close relations with Iran and sees Indonesia as a nation that can partner it in building ties with Iran. Of course Indonesia and Italy can also see their stature rise if they can build a constructive relationship with Iran.
I think when it comes to this summit, the one thing I wanted to show is that from the G-8 leaders’ POV, they have more important issues to address than Indonesia. This is why Try either struggles to advance Indonesia’s strategic aims or have less than pleasant exchanges with the G-8 leaders he has met. It's because whether consciously or not they have an attitude of "Nah, you're not that important."
Canada is hostile because it sympathizes with Australia, the US feels it has more important things to do ie. Yugoslavia and more important countries to keep happy ie. Australia, Japan disagrees with Indonesia’s attitude to China, and Russia says it doesn’t want Indonesia to get in the way of its relationship with China.
Italy being the most friendly of the nations met thus far is a reflection of its OTL reputation as the “Least of the Great Powers” (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Least_of_the_great_powers) and thus probably more sympathetic to the G-8 invitees.
But once again Indonesia being “not that important” is seen when President of France fails to meet with Try, the choice being all too easy when the alternative to meeting Try is meeting with the President of the United States.
The only G-8 nations which Try has not met at the summit are Germany and the UK.
The skies were green and the weather pleasant as President Try Sutrisno stood and watched the G-8 leaders take their photo. Dressed in his suit, tie and peci for the occasion, Try waited his turn with all of the other invitees.
“Fancy yourself standing up there one day, Mr. President?” asked the voice behind him tapping him on the shoulder.
Try turned around and found himself shaking hands with President of Ukraine Leonid Kuchma.
“Just trying to muddle my way through at the moment, Mr. President”, Try replied.
“Isn’t that always the case?” said Kuchma before going on to say a line that Try knew was Kuchma’s favorite “It’s only a multipolar world for those aspiring to be “poles”, the rest of us have to make do with multi-vectorism.”
An usher told the G-8 Invitees that it was their turn to join in the photograph. Try walked with Kuchma, the latter telling him that Ukraine had applied to the NAM for its observer status to be upgraded to a membership. Try said that Indonesia would welcome that as he took his position for the official photograph.
When the photographs were finished, the invitees were keen to get some informal facetime with the G-8 leaders. Try made eye contact with Prime Minister of the United Kingdom Gordon Brown who looked like he wanted to say something. But Try's attention would be distracted by an elderly man wearing long billowing robes a keffiyeh on his head. Try approached him and allowed the older man to hold on to his arm. The older man’s aide moved towards him but the older man signalled him not to come closer. and allow him to walk with Try.
“There are cameras about, Mr. President”, said Crown Prince of Saudi Arabia Abdullah “I hope this doesn’t cause a misunderstanding with Tehran.”
“Indonesia being friends with Saudi Arabia doesn’t mean it’s becoming the enemy of Iran” Try said “Just as Indonesia becoming friends with Iran doesn’t mean that it’s becoming the enemy of Saudi Arabia.”
Abdullah tried to pass off the Aramco contractors taking a long time to return to Indonesia and the complaints about Indonesia’s BAKIN keeping surveillance on LIPIA as misunderstandings as a result of “others in Riyadh”. Despite apologizing however, Abdullah made the argument that Saudi Arabia had not experienced a terrorist attack after 9/11, this despite the government having not taken “harsh measures” such as those in Indonesia or Egypt against suspected terrorists.
“I hope one does not have to wait until they are struck with a terrorist attack to begin taking action, Your Royal Highness”, Try said “And secondly, I know you are not as pro-American as the King and you want to show your independence from the United States but not taking a decisive stance, not taking a decisive action against those claiming to act on behalf of our faith is not the way to go. If anything, Your Royal Highness, taking action will give you that independence to chart your own way.”
Abdullah was silent as he thought things through as he and Try continued on their walk.
“Coming from someone who has taken said decisive stance and action and has gone on to buy Russian weapons and positioned themselves one step away from joining a bloc of emerging economies, this is a point worth considering”, Abdullah said “But what can I do concretely, Mr. President?”
“What you do within your own borders are your concern, Your Royal Highness”, replied Try.
“Perhaps Saudi Arabia can provide aid to Afghanistan?” enquired Abdullah.
“Well, I regret to say Your Royal Highness that the Iranians have a headstart there”, Try replied.
There was a flash of anger in Abdullah’s eyes but Try knew what he was doing: he wanted Saudi Arabia and Iran to compete with each other in fighting extremism.
“But perhaps there are other ways to help”, Try said “Perhaps you’re strategically located to apply pressure on them and tell President Aziz Khan that Pakistan would have more credibility if they made a real effort at making sure there are no Al Qaeda elements hiding in Pakistan rather than making a claim that there are no terrorists and expecting everyone to trust them based on that.”
Try and Abdullah parted ways as they arrived back at the summit venue. The plenary session, led by President of France Alain Juppe, discussed the possibility of forming a forum discuss matters related to the global economy. To the laughter of those in attendance, President of United States John McCain and President of Russia Yevgeny Primakov said that this forum should not be the G-8; the former arguing that the forum needs to have permanent membership instead of permanent members plus those the year’s chair feel like inviting, the latter saying that the G-8 and BRIC are separate organizations. The meeting responded more positively to Prime Minister of Canada Paul Martin’s suggestion that such a forum should consist of the world’s largest economies.
Finding the world’s foremost economic powers debating and arguing, Try got bored and though he kept watching things unfold in front of him, he found himself listening behind him to the front row of the Indonesian delegation debating about what Primakov had told him the previous day. Minister of Defense and Security Wiranto was all for buying weapons from Iraq if it could meant a “bargain” could be had while Minister of Economics and National Development Planning Dorodjatun Kuntjoro-Jakti said that this could “risk everything” as far as the West's response was concerned. Minister of Foreign Affairs Marzuki Darusman’s stance was somewhere in between of Wiranto and Dorodjatun's/
“What if we keep Iraq as a card in our back pocket for now? All things considered, it’s very unlikely there’ll be any regime change over there soon” weighed in State Secretary Edi Sudrajat “Only and if only things become dire and desperate that we reach into our back pocket and we use that card.”
There were murmurs of agreement from Marzuki, Wiranto, and Dorodjatun. Try himself also agreed with what Edi said.
It was after lunch that Try, accompanied by Marzuki Darusman and Edi Sudrajat, went to have his meeting with Prime Minister of Italy Francesco Rutelli, the latter being accompanied by Minister of Foreign Affairs Piero Fassino. Try and Rutelli talked closer economic ties, with Try asking for Italy’s assistance to help Indonesian coffee producers and exporters fulfill EU imported coffee standards. Rutelli in turn asked for the Indonesian government to facilitate motorcycle manufacturer Piaggio’s application to open a factory and for insurance provider Generali to begin operations in Indonesia, saying that the two respective companies see Indonesia as a bright investment prospects.
Rutelli then went on to speak more strategically. Rutelli that Italy and Indonesia both share a close relations with Iran and thanked Indonesia for doing its part. Try said that both Italy and Indonesia must continue to build closer relations with Iran to create a more conducive international environment. Rutelli expressed his desire of realizing an international gathering which takes “Dialogue Among Civilizations” as its theme, dialogue among civilizations being an idea put forward and espoused by President of Iran Muhammad Khatami. Try expressed his support, saying that Khatami having to leave office in slightly more than 2 years is a “natural deadline” before which this event can be held.
The conversation went on to other topics. Marzuki asked for Italy’s point of view on the “Humanitarian Intervention” in Yugoslavia, whereupon Fassino provided an account of Italy’s involvement, saying that much like in 1999, allowed the United States and its coalition to use Italian air bases. Italian military personnel had not been involved in the ground invasion but that they have now been deployed now that Montenegro has been liberated to help maintain security and provide aid on the ground. Rutelli then quipped that while strategically and security-wise Italy has aligned itself with the United States, it sees itself as being economically tied to and supporting the EU, with the intention of helping it become an economic power and, in turn, leverage that for geopolitical purposes.
Rutelli then asked Try whether there were any Italian-made military equipment that Indonesia might be interested in, half-jokingly saying that the Australians “don’t have any leverage here” to attempt to prevent a sale from happening. Try said that he was interested in the 2 Assad-Class corvettes that remains out of the 6 which Italy had produced for Iraq in the 80s and of which 4 had been purchased by Malaysia. Rutelli confirmed that this was the message he got from the Ministry of Defence.
From Rutelli, Try went to a G-8 Business Summit event attended by businessmen from the G-8 countries where he delivered a speech about Indonesia’s economy and promoted it as a great place for investment. Try also spoke about the infrastructure projects that are under way in Indonesia, joking that contrary to “perception”, his interest is not just in acquiring weapons.
En route to his next meeting, Try found himself standing in front of a television broadcasting a CNN interview of Prime Minister of Malaysia Najib Razak. Najib said that the procurement of MBTs and aircraft which Malaysia made two days prior was a sign of Malaysia’s independence when it comes to strategic matters and that Malaysia has taken such a step in response to those with “hegemonic aspirations” in the region. When asked who has these hegemonic aspirations, Najib only said that “it cannot be those from whom we have procured these military equipments”.
Edi saw Try’s eyes narrow in anger at the sight of Najib saying all this though after a few moments composing himself, he began to walk to his next meeting. Edi tagged out for this meeting as Minister of Defense and Security Wiranto tagged in.
Prime Minister of France Jean Pierre Rafarrin and Minister of Defense Michele Alliot-Marie were apologetic that Juppe had not attended the meeting; saying that he was meeting with McCain because the latter will be departing after the gala dinner that night. Try expressed his understanding and expressed Indonesia’s support to the idea put forward by Juppe that there should be an international forum to discuss the global economy.
Rafarrin himself had other things on his agenda and was keen to get down the business. While thanking Indonesia for its “continued faith” in French military equipment, Rafarrin wondered whether he could interest Indonesia in further products. At Rafarrin’s cue, Alliot-Marie then proceded to sound like a spokeswoman for French defense industry though there were two “products” in particular that caught Try and Wiranto’s eyes.
The first was the AMX-30 tanks which France had begun to phase out from its Army. Try’s mind immediately went back to when he was Deputy Army Chief of Staff (1985-1986) and there was some talk about purchasing this for ABRI. Alliot-Marie put on a hard sell, saying that she is aware that Indonesia was on the lookout for something not as heavy as an MBT but not as light as an AMX-13. Wiranto countered and asked for a repeat and volume discount because Indonesia intended this to be a “quantity” purchase. Seeing Rafarrin and Alliot-Marie a bit taken aback, Try apologized on Wiranto’s behalf but in a way which showed that he approved of what Wiranto was asking for. Rafarrin promised to take this under consideration.
The second one was regarding an aircraft. While the Dassault Rafale was pitched to them, it was the SEPECAT Jaguar which got Try and Wiranto’s attention though not for technical reasons. Rafarrin said that “the other nation” involved in the production of SEPECAT Jaguar was willing to assist regarding the payment arrangements of the Jaguar should Indonesia wish to make the procurement.
For the moment however, Wiranto and Alliat-Marie signed an agreement which made official Indonesia’s purchase of another 50 VAB APCs and 6 Master-T Radar fixed units. Of the 6 radars, 2 will be assembled by PT. Len, Indonesia’s state-owned electronics enterprise. Cameras were on hand as Wiranto and Alliat-Marie signed the agreement and shook hands with each other while Try and Rafarrin stood behind them applauding.
After more handshakes and Rafarrin reminding Try not to miss the gala dinner in just a few hours before leaving, Try huddled together with Marzuki and Wiranto.
“If I may, Mr. Minister of Defense and Security”, Marzuki began “Which other nation was involved with the production of the aircraft that France just offered to us?”
“The United Kingdom, Mr. Minister of Foreign Affairs”, Wiranto replied.
Try looked thoughtful.
“The United Kingdom…”, Try began “Each time I’ve seen and bumped into him here, Prime Minister Brown’s been looking at me like there’s a whole load of things he wants to talk about…and now we find out that the United Kingdom wants to help with the payment arrangement if we’re interested in the Jaguar…”
“Well now that you’ve said that he’s been looking at you like that, Mr. President”, said Marzuki “I’m very much interested to hear what the United Kingdom has to say.”
---
In OTL, Ukraine is a NAM Observer.
Try and Kuchma need no introduction to each other because they have already met before https://www.antarafoto.com/fr/view/1963473/wapres-try-sutrisno-cenderamata-presiden-ukrania
In OTL, Crown Prince Abdullah was by this time the dominant figure in Saudi politics because King Fahd is ill and he has been described as being less pro-US than King Fahd http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/255097.stm
The ITTL multipolar moment provides him with a more conducive environment to indulge his inclination to act independently of the US. Post 9/11, he’s been unenthusiastic about taking decisive action against potential terrorist elements in Saudi Arabia. Any terrorist incidents post-2001 are butterflied away which only contributs to Abdullah being even less inclined. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents_in_Saudi_Arabia#2001
ITTL’s G-20 being discussed here.
As in OTL, Italy maintains close relations with Iran and sees Indonesia as a nation that can partner it in building ties with Iran. Of course Indonesia and Italy can also see their stature rise if they can build a constructive relationship with Iran.
I think when it comes to this summit, the one thing I wanted to show is that from the G-8 leaders’ POV, they have more important issues to address than Indonesia. This is why Try either struggles to advance Indonesia’s strategic aims or have less than pleasant exchanges with the G-8 leaders he has met. It's because whether consciously or not they have an attitude of "Nah, you're not that important."
Canada is hostile because it sympathizes with Australia, the US feels it has more important things to do ie. Yugoslavia and more important countries to keep happy ie. Australia, Japan disagrees with Indonesia’s attitude to China, and Russia says it doesn’t want Indonesia to get in the way of its relationship with China.
Italy being the most friendly of the nations met thus far is a reflection of its OTL reputation as the “Least of the Great Powers” (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Least_of_the_great_powers) and thus probably more sympathetic to the G-8 invitees.
But once again Indonesia being “not that important” is seen when President of France fails to meet with Try, the choice being all too easy when the alternative to meeting Try is meeting with the President of the United States.
The only G-8 nations which Try has not met at the summit are Germany and the UK.
2011 is still a long way to go....
Nice
Maybe later on the day for Brown, but for a second i thought the keffiyeh-wearing man is Yasser Arafat himself before i remember that this is a G-8 meeting.
Ah well....
And also strengthening Saudi's leadership on the Islamic World which currently is challenged by Egypt.
Yup, props for Khatami.
Hope it all goes well.... (inb4 China)
G-20?
Surely i would not surprised if Primakov suddenly got a whole bunch of weapons ready to sell to Indonesia in the coming months.
After reading Khatami's profile back in January, i feel that it's really a shame that Khatami's vision OTL has not been realized....
If not France and Germany, then EU as a pole on itself would be nice, indeed.
Lol, Najib would be angry.
Investment for Sumatera and Sulawesi railways soon?
*rolls eyes I mean, it's not that i expect something else.
Hmm, (*looks at the invitees list) so we have UK, South Africa, Mexico, Greece, World Bank, Canada, IMF, and Kofi Annan left. Still not crossing out the latter three from a one-on-one meeting as maybe they would have some surprises for Try and co.
Looking at his photo archives, by 2007 he's not that changed compared to 1998.
Well, well, not counting those out yet depending on Pakistan's response.
Yasss
Amen to that, and as long as Iran stayed good.
Still not "Masuk Hitungan" yet, indeed.
Well, well, can't wait for next week.
Yeah....I am too tired to even consider writing a long winded rant...one thing for sure...Najib really like to lie...
256: The G-8 Summit Part IV
3rd June 2003:
Chancellor of Germany Gerhard Schroeder was full of back slaps and pats on the shoulder as he shook hands with President Try Sutrisno. Try brought in Minister of Foreign Affairs Marzuki Darusman and Minister of Defense and Security with him while Schroeder was accompanied by Vice Chancellor/Minister of Foreign Affairs Joschka Fischer and Minister of Defence Peter Struck. Schroeder was saying quite loudly that “now that we’re both re-elected, we can get down to business”. When the cameras were told to leave the room that was literally what they got down to.
After a brief introduction, Schroeder allowed Struck to speak. Struck would go on to give a presentation which sounded to all in the room like it had been given by him for a second time. Struck himself would admit that he had given the same presentation when meeting`with Wiranto, that Wiranto had “unexpectedly” shown objection to what was presented, and that both ministers agreed that the matter should be referred to their heads of government. Schroeder asked what the objection was to which Try nodded for Wiranto to speak.
Wiranto said that as far as what the Germans are offering in terms of military equipment, Indonesia thanks Germany for what has been placed on offer and that this was in line with what ABRI wants for its development; it was just the case that the price offered was still too high. Marzuki suppressed a smile when Wiranto pulled out the line he used with the French, asking for both a repeat discount and quantity discount.
Schroeder only chuckled and challenged Wiranto that a quantity discount means an increased quantity. Try countered that an increased quantity either means an increased quantity discount or something else like faster delivery or a production license. Both Fischer and Struck could see that Schroeder was enjoying this and allowed their chancellor leeway. Marzuki saw that this was the kind of haggling one saw in the Indonesian market, where both the buyer and the seller knew that a deal was coming it was just a matter of how much fun they could have with each other on the way to the deal. Wiranto would later recall that “The Chancellor of Germany was as keen to sell German military equipment as our President was to acquire them.”
The final part of the bargaining came when Wiranto enquired about the availability of Germany’s MiG-29s. Schroeder scoffed and said that Germany had originally intended to let Poland have the 22 MiG-29s at its disposal. But then Poland cancelled the procurement after Germany signed its Northern European Gas Pipeline Deal with Russia and have ended up signing an agreement with the United States to procure the 28 F-16s Indonesia was interested in at a discounted price. Though somewhat disappointed that Indonesia only asked for 12, Schroeder accepted and gave a discounted price. Fischer and Struck knew that even at a discounted price, Germany would be making more from the MiG-29 sale to Indonesia than the price it originally offered Poland.
While Wiranto and Struck went over the terms for an MoU on Indonesia procuring more military equipment from Germany (an official agreement would only be signed once the price had been finalized after the changes in the quantity of equipment purchased and Schroeder’s discounts), Try and Marzuki continued the talks with Schroeder and Fischer.
Schroeder talked at length about how a multipolar world has made the international situation favorable for Germany to advance its goals and its interests. Regarding the “humanitarian intervention” in Yugoslavia, Fischer explained that despite participating in 1999 Germany had decided to sit the present campaign out in part because promising to not participate in Yugoslavia help get the SPD/Green coalition re-elected and in part because of the Northern Europe Gas Pipeline agreement it had signed with Russia.
“Mr. Chancellor, how do you suppose Yugoslavia will turn out?” asked Try.
“You mean who will win, Mr. President?” asked Schroeder “All of us.”
Try and Marzuki were taken aback by this.
“If you would be so kind as to elaborate, Mr. Chancellor”, said Marzuki.
“The United States are at this stage involved in two wars, Afghanistan and Yugoslavia”, Schroeder “They are preoccupied with getting those who caught them unawares on 11th September in Afghanistan while at the same time trying to prove that this world is still a unipolar one in Yugoslavia.
You look at what’s happening in Afghanistan. The Taliban’s been overthrown and Osama Bin Laden’s nowhere to be found. But what’s the guarantee that the Taliban won’t return if we pull out from Afghanistan? And we can’t say that we’re done with Bin Laden so long as he is still alive. The United States is not done with Afghanistan, not by a longshot.
And now this thing in Yugoslavia. Montenegro is liberated and by the looks of things, President McCain is bent on finishing the job that remains undone in 1999 and that is to unseat President Slobodan Milosevic. But then what? They think Milosevic is not without his followers? I don’t know what President Primakov’s intention is in Yugoslavia but he can be said to have won if somehow the United States were to get stuck in Yugoslavia.
And so will the rest of us emerge victorious. As powerful as the United States is they can’t be everywhere to take care of everything and this will be even more so if they’re tied up in both Afghanistan and Yugoslavia. Others will be better able to advance their cause economically, militarily or otherwise if the United States is distracted.”
When the meeting ended and as he walked to his next meeting, Try only had one question though he did not want to ask it to Schroeder directly out so as not to jeopardize the Leopards, Marders, MiG-29s and other equipments mentioned in Wiranto and Struck’s MoU.
“When the Chancellor spoke about “all of us” does he literally mean everyone in the world or just those wanting to become a pole?” asked Try.
En route to their next meeting, Wiranto tagged out and now Try and Marzuki found themselves being joined by State Secretary Edi Sudrajat. Just as they arrived at their next meeting room however, someone was coming out having evidently had their last meeting there. He had a dark skin and though he had a pleasant expression on his face, Try could not help but feel that he was being glared at when he looked at this person’s eyes.
“Mr. Secretary General, good to see you”, Try said to Secretary General of the UN Kofi Annan.
It was, as Try would agree, Annan being polite. Annan asked about how Indonesia had handled SARS and Try obliged. The only real moment that there was underlying tension was when Try asked how Annan was doing and Annan said that he’s been kept busy by Sudan and both its civil war and the “developing situation in Darfur”. With the Sudanese Civil War, Annan confessed that negotiating peace was difficult because the South Sudanese only sees autonomy as a stepping stone to an independence referendum and would not settle for less.
“This is why I am still concerned for those whose settlements only leave them with autonomy, Mr. President”, Annan said “I worry that such settlements are not actually settled yet.”
Try tried his best to smile while Edi could no longer hide that he was not smiling. It fell to Marzuki to step in.
“Whichever solution works for a given situation is the best one, Mr. Secretary General”, said Marzuki “I cannot speak for Sudan, but I believe that the settlement which was agreed to for Indonesia’s situation has worked for the best. So much so that Papua New Guinea has sought to settle its situation with the Bougainvilleans the same way.”
“If you say so”, Annan said in a flat tone before excusing himself.
After taking a moment to calm himself down, Try stepped into the meeting room. Prime Minister of the United Kingdom Gordon Brown was there to shake his hand, once again looking like he really wanted to talk about something with Try. Brown was accompanied by Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs Alistair Darling.
The initial discussion was a bit pedestrian. The two leaders talked about Exor III, a project between Pertamina and British Petroleum, which was still under construction. The British enjoyed the possibility put forward by that despite starting later than Exor II, Exor III looked set to finish earlier than Exor II. But then the conversation took a different turn.
“100 Chinese MBTs heading in Malaysia’s direction, Mr. President”, Brown said, changing the topic abruptly “What do you make of that?”
Try looked Marzuki and Edi before answering Brown.
“Well, it means the People’s Republic of China continues its effort to increase its influence in Southeast Asia, Mr. Prime Minister”, Try said “Of course last year they supported the emergence of the new regime in Myanmar and now this…”
“Where does that put Malaysia in Indonesia’s radar as far as it being a security threat is concerned?” asked Brown.
“Well, it’s not Malaysia we’re concerned about, Mr. Prime Minister, after all we just had a territorial dispute last December which was ruled in their favor and despite our less than ideal relations, we did not dispute the ruling or try to engage in a show of strength”, said Marzuki “What we’re concerned about is the nation that has sold those MBTs to Malaysia and its intentions towards Southeast Asia.”
Try watched the conversation unfold in front of him.
Brown keeps on asking about Malaysia even though we direct the conversation to China…he’s been looking at me like he wants to say something all summit…maybe it’s Malaysia he wants to talk about, thought Try.
“The news from Malaysia does concern us because it shows hostility on the part of Prime Minister Najib; claiming that he has made this decision to counter our alleged aspirations, Prime Minister Brown”, Try said “It’s just that some months ago when I visited the United Kingdom and you were not in government, Prime Minister Blair has told us that regardless of good relations between Indonesia and the United Kingdom, the United Kingdom’s treaty obligations means if push comes to shove it would have to side with Malaysia over Indonesia.”
Brown looked at Try with a pleased expression now that they were starting to have the conversation he wanted.
“He spoke about the FPDA?” asked Brown.
“He did, Mr. Prime Minister”, Try replied.
“Well, first and foremost my predecessor needs to get it right; the FPDA only provides for consultations between its signatories not military intervention”, Brown said dismissively as though Tony Blair was in the room before turning serious “Secondly the situation has changed. In September 2002 the stance of the government is that as long as Malaysia’s relationship with China is limited to the economic field then there is no concern, in January 2003 there is the first hint of information that Malaysia is seeking to buy weapons from China and it is to warn against this, in addition to making sure that Indonesia keeps quiet during the intervention in Yugoslavia, that prompted my predecessor to send some military aid your way.”
“Evidently, Malaysia has ignored your warning”, Try said seeing Brown’s face turning grim.
“Evidently”, Brown said “And at the moment whether we are in the middle of the Second Cold War or in the middle of a Multipolar Moment is irrelevant. On the grand scale, the United Kingdom is on the United States’ side and China is on Russia’s side. At the same time, we have a commitment in the form of the FPDA. Yet, Malaysia has now taken a decisive step into China’s orbit if this continues, we will find ourselves in a situation where to side with Malaysia as part of the FPDA, whether that be against Indonesia or anyone else, will be to the benefit of China. It is unacceptable for us if Malaysia was to continue to seek the protection of the FPDA even as it lines up with China on major strategic matters.”
“Could you not have stopped Malaysia from making the decision it did?” asked Marzuki.
Brown turned to Darling.
“The Brown Labor Government has been in existence for nearly 3 months and because we have come into being on the basis that the United Kingdom will not participate in the Humanitarian Intervention in Yugoslavia, we busied ourselves with other matters in this instance Malaysia’s intention to procure weapons from China”, Darling said “There were exchanges of letters between the Prime Minister and Prime Minister Najib…more importantly, we also tried to mobilize the others in the FPDA to advice Malaysia against this course of action.”
“How did that effort go, Mr. Foreign Secretary?” asked Marzuki.
“Singapore cautioned Malaysia against making the purchase out of concern that this might cause a breach in the FPDA and widen the existing breach in ASEAN between the Jakarta Bloc and those standing against it”, Darling began “New Zealand was at first non-committal, now Australia…”
“Australia, you would be interested to know, is very supportive of Malaysia procuring weapons from China and even convinced New Zealand to also show its support for Malaysia”, Brown interrupted, seeing the expression on Try’s face darken “It was because of Australia and New Zealand’s support, but especially the former, that Najib felt certain about going forward with is procurement even with the United Kingdom’s warning.”
Try processed the information by looking grimly at the floor.
“Evidently, the nations giving the United Kingdom concern is also giving Indonesia concern”, Brown said.
“Evidently”, Try said “But you are also in a grouping with these same nations which, if I’m seeing the dynamics between Malaysia and Australia correctly, are positioning Indonesia as the security threat. How can we trust the United Kingdom?”
“I understand that, Mr. President”, Brown said “But you of all people must know what it’s like being in an organization where the People’s Republic of China is not a member but it tries to benefit by proxy.”
When the meeting ended, Brown and his delegation were the one to leave first leaving Try, Marzuki, and Edi to ponder what just happened.
“The United Kingdom confirming that it will assist financially if we want to buy the SEPECAT Jaguar as well as promising that the military equipment which they will no longer use as part of their defense restructuring can be made available to us if we want it…”, Edi said “Now that’s something.”
“Perhaps it’s not such a surprise given what we heard in Bahrain”, Marzuki said “If they want to make themselves useful to the United States without participating in Yugoslavia, then this is the way to do it and if we benefit from it, so much the better.”
Try was just glad to have the meeting with Brown over and done with for it meant that the G-8 Summit was coming to a close. The summit ended at lunchtime with a leaders’ communique, the suggestion to establish a forum for the major world economies, whether developed or emerging, getting top billing there. For Try, there was a quick meeting with President of France Alain Juppe to say his farewells and then it was across the border to Geneva, Switzerland to the Cointrin Airport, the Presidential Airplane and the flight back home to Jakarta.
---
In OTL, Germany’s Mig-29 went to Poland (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Mikoyan_MiG-29_operators#_Poland). In ITTL however, Poland got pissed Germany and Russia signed the agreement to make ITTL’s Nordstream I and cancelled the purchase of Mig-29 and instead got the 28 F-16s Indonesia interested in. Incidentally in OTL, Poland also was less than unhappy with Nordstream I (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2006/may/01/eu.poland).
The Second Sudanese Civil War and the events of Darfur being mentioned by Annan here.
Bung @Kosaki_MacTavish has a sharp nose, saying that the FPDA would become unworkable if Malaysia gets into China’s orbit. Here, the UK wants to nip things the bud but with the secret motive of remaining in the US’ good books despite not participating with Yugoslavia and wanting to elbow Australia out of the way and have the US’ ear once again.
Chancellor of Germany Gerhard Schroeder was full of back slaps and pats on the shoulder as he shook hands with President Try Sutrisno. Try brought in Minister of Foreign Affairs Marzuki Darusman and Minister of Defense and Security with him while Schroeder was accompanied by Vice Chancellor/Minister of Foreign Affairs Joschka Fischer and Minister of Defence Peter Struck. Schroeder was saying quite loudly that “now that we’re both re-elected, we can get down to business”. When the cameras were told to leave the room that was literally what they got down to.
After a brief introduction, Schroeder allowed Struck to speak. Struck would go on to give a presentation which sounded to all in the room like it had been given by him for a second time. Struck himself would admit that he had given the same presentation when meeting`with Wiranto, that Wiranto had “unexpectedly” shown objection to what was presented, and that both ministers agreed that the matter should be referred to their heads of government. Schroeder asked what the objection was to which Try nodded for Wiranto to speak.
Wiranto said that as far as what the Germans are offering in terms of military equipment, Indonesia thanks Germany for what has been placed on offer and that this was in line with what ABRI wants for its development; it was just the case that the price offered was still too high. Marzuki suppressed a smile when Wiranto pulled out the line he used with the French, asking for both a repeat discount and quantity discount.
Schroeder only chuckled and challenged Wiranto that a quantity discount means an increased quantity. Try countered that an increased quantity either means an increased quantity discount or something else like faster delivery or a production license. Both Fischer and Struck could see that Schroeder was enjoying this and allowed their chancellor leeway. Marzuki saw that this was the kind of haggling one saw in the Indonesian market, where both the buyer and the seller knew that a deal was coming it was just a matter of how much fun they could have with each other on the way to the deal. Wiranto would later recall that “The Chancellor of Germany was as keen to sell German military equipment as our President was to acquire them.”
The final part of the bargaining came when Wiranto enquired about the availability of Germany’s MiG-29s. Schroeder scoffed and said that Germany had originally intended to let Poland have the 22 MiG-29s at its disposal. But then Poland cancelled the procurement after Germany signed its Northern European Gas Pipeline Deal with Russia and have ended up signing an agreement with the United States to procure the 28 F-16s Indonesia was interested in at a discounted price. Though somewhat disappointed that Indonesia only asked for 12, Schroeder accepted and gave a discounted price. Fischer and Struck knew that even at a discounted price, Germany would be making more from the MiG-29 sale to Indonesia than the price it originally offered Poland.
While Wiranto and Struck went over the terms for an MoU on Indonesia procuring more military equipment from Germany (an official agreement would only be signed once the price had been finalized after the changes in the quantity of equipment purchased and Schroeder’s discounts), Try and Marzuki continued the talks with Schroeder and Fischer.
Schroeder talked at length about how a multipolar world has made the international situation favorable for Germany to advance its goals and its interests. Regarding the “humanitarian intervention” in Yugoslavia, Fischer explained that despite participating in 1999 Germany had decided to sit the present campaign out in part because promising to not participate in Yugoslavia help get the SPD/Green coalition re-elected and in part because of the Northern Europe Gas Pipeline agreement it had signed with Russia.
“Mr. Chancellor, how do you suppose Yugoslavia will turn out?” asked Try.
“You mean who will win, Mr. President?” asked Schroeder “All of us.”
Try and Marzuki were taken aback by this.
“If you would be so kind as to elaborate, Mr. Chancellor”, said Marzuki.
“The United States are at this stage involved in two wars, Afghanistan and Yugoslavia”, Schroeder “They are preoccupied with getting those who caught them unawares on 11th September in Afghanistan while at the same time trying to prove that this world is still a unipolar one in Yugoslavia.
You look at what’s happening in Afghanistan. The Taliban’s been overthrown and Osama Bin Laden’s nowhere to be found. But what’s the guarantee that the Taliban won’t return if we pull out from Afghanistan? And we can’t say that we’re done with Bin Laden so long as he is still alive. The United States is not done with Afghanistan, not by a longshot.
And now this thing in Yugoslavia. Montenegro is liberated and by the looks of things, President McCain is bent on finishing the job that remains undone in 1999 and that is to unseat President Slobodan Milosevic. But then what? They think Milosevic is not without his followers? I don’t know what President Primakov’s intention is in Yugoslavia but he can be said to have won if somehow the United States were to get stuck in Yugoslavia.
And so will the rest of us emerge victorious. As powerful as the United States is they can’t be everywhere to take care of everything and this will be even more so if they’re tied up in both Afghanistan and Yugoslavia. Others will be better able to advance their cause economically, militarily or otherwise if the United States is distracted.”
When the meeting ended and as he walked to his next meeting, Try only had one question though he did not want to ask it to Schroeder directly out so as not to jeopardize the Leopards, Marders, MiG-29s and other equipments mentioned in Wiranto and Struck’s MoU.
“When the Chancellor spoke about “all of us” does he literally mean everyone in the world or just those wanting to become a pole?” asked Try.
En route to their next meeting, Wiranto tagged out and now Try and Marzuki found themselves being joined by State Secretary Edi Sudrajat. Just as they arrived at their next meeting room however, someone was coming out having evidently had their last meeting there. He had a dark skin and though he had a pleasant expression on his face, Try could not help but feel that he was being glared at when he looked at this person’s eyes.
“Mr. Secretary General, good to see you”, Try said to Secretary General of the UN Kofi Annan.
It was, as Try would agree, Annan being polite. Annan asked about how Indonesia had handled SARS and Try obliged. The only real moment that there was underlying tension was when Try asked how Annan was doing and Annan said that he’s been kept busy by Sudan and both its civil war and the “developing situation in Darfur”. With the Sudanese Civil War, Annan confessed that negotiating peace was difficult because the South Sudanese only sees autonomy as a stepping stone to an independence referendum and would not settle for less.
“This is why I am still concerned for those whose settlements only leave them with autonomy, Mr. President”, Annan said “I worry that such settlements are not actually settled yet.”
Try tried his best to smile while Edi could no longer hide that he was not smiling. It fell to Marzuki to step in.
“Whichever solution works for a given situation is the best one, Mr. Secretary General”, said Marzuki “I cannot speak for Sudan, but I believe that the settlement which was agreed to for Indonesia’s situation has worked for the best. So much so that Papua New Guinea has sought to settle its situation with the Bougainvilleans the same way.”
“If you say so”, Annan said in a flat tone before excusing himself.
After taking a moment to calm himself down, Try stepped into the meeting room. Prime Minister of the United Kingdom Gordon Brown was there to shake his hand, once again looking like he really wanted to talk about something with Try. Brown was accompanied by Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs Alistair Darling.
The initial discussion was a bit pedestrian. The two leaders talked about Exor III, a project between Pertamina and British Petroleum, which was still under construction. The British enjoyed the possibility put forward by that despite starting later than Exor II, Exor III looked set to finish earlier than Exor II. But then the conversation took a different turn.
“100 Chinese MBTs heading in Malaysia’s direction, Mr. President”, Brown said, changing the topic abruptly “What do you make of that?”
Try looked Marzuki and Edi before answering Brown.
“Well, it means the People’s Republic of China continues its effort to increase its influence in Southeast Asia, Mr. Prime Minister”, Try said “Of course last year they supported the emergence of the new regime in Myanmar and now this…”
“Where does that put Malaysia in Indonesia’s radar as far as it being a security threat is concerned?” asked Brown.
“Well, it’s not Malaysia we’re concerned about, Mr. Prime Minister, after all we just had a territorial dispute last December which was ruled in their favor and despite our less than ideal relations, we did not dispute the ruling or try to engage in a show of strength”, said Marzuki “What we’re concerned about is the nation that has sold those MBTs to Malaysia and its intentions towards Southeast Asia.”
Try watched the conversation unfold in front of him.
Brown keeps on asking about Malaysia even though we direct the conversation to China…he’s been looking at me like he wants to say something all summit…maybe it’s Malaysia he wants to talk about, thought Try.
“The news from Malaysia does concern us because it shows hostility on the part of Prime Minister Najib; claiming that he has made this decision to counter our alleged aspirations, Prime Minister Brown”, Try said “It’s just that some months ago when I visited the United Kingdom and you were not in government, Prime Minister Blair has told us that regardless of good relations between Indonesia and the United Kingdom, the United Kingdom’s treaty obligations means if push comes to shove it would have to side with Malaysia over Indonesia.”
Brown looked at Try with a pleased expression now that they were starting to have the conversation he wanted.
“He spoke about the FPDA?” asked Brown.
“He did, Mr. Prime Minister”, Try replied.
“Well, first and foremost my predecessor needs to get it right; the FPDA only provides for consultations between its signatories not military intervention”, Brown said dismissively as though Tony Blair was in the room before turning serious “Secondly the situation has changed. In September 2002 the stance of the government is that as long as Malaysia’s relationship with China is limited to the economic field then there is no concern, in January 2003 there is the first hint of information that Malaysia is seeking to buy weapons from China and it is to warn against this, in addition to making sure that Indonesia keeps quiet during the intervention in Yugoslavia, that prompted my predecessor to send some military aid your way.”
“Evidently, Malaysia has ignored your warning”, Try said seeing Brown’s face turning grim.
“Evidently”, Brown said “And at the moment whether we are in the middle of the Second Cold War or in the middle of a Multipolar Moment is irrelevant. On the grand scale, the United Kingdom is on the United States’ side and China is on Russia’s side. At the same time, we have a commitment in the form of the FPDA. Yet, Malaysia has now taken a decisive step into China’s orbit if this continues, we will find ourselves in a situation where to side with Malaysia as part of the FPDA, whether that be against Indonesia or anyone else, will be to the benefit of China. It is unacceptable for us if Malaysia was to continue to seek the protection of the FPDA even as it lines up with China on major strategic matters.”
“Could you not have stopped Malaysia from making the decision it did?” asked Marzuki.
Brown turned to Darling.
“The Brown Labor Government has been in existence for nearly 3 months and because we have come into being on the basis that the United Kingdom will not participate in the Humanitarian Intervention in Yugoslavia, we busied ourselves with other matters in this instance Malaysia’s intention to procure weapons from China”, Darling said “There were exchanges of letters between the Prime Minister and Prime Minister Najib…more importantly, we also tried to mobilize the others in the FPDA to advice Malaysia against this course of action.”
“How did that effort go, Mr. Foreign Secretary?” asked Marzuki.
“Singapore cautioned Malaysia against making the purchase out of concern that this might cause a breach in the FPDA and widen the existing breach in ASEAN between the Jakarta Bloc and those standing against it”, Darling began “New Zealand was at first non-committal, now Australia…”
“Australia, you would be interested to know, is very supportive of Malaysia procuring weapons from China and even convinced New Zealand to also show its support for Malaysia”, Brown interrupted, seeing the expression on Try’s face darken “It was because of Australia and New Zealand’s support, but especially the former, that Najib felt certain about going forward with is procurement even with the United Kingdom’s warning.”
Try processed the information by looking grimly at the floor.
“Evidently, the nations giving the United Kingdom concern is also giving Indonesia concern”, Brown said.
“Evidently”, Try said “But you are also in a grouping with these same nations which, if I’m seeing the dynamics between Malaysia and Australia correctly, are positioning Indonesia as the security threat. How can we trust the United Kingdom?”
“I understand that, Mr. President”, Brown said “But you of all people must know what it’s like being in an organization where the People’s Republic of China is not a member but it tries to benefit by proxy.”
When the meeting ended, Brown and his delegation were the one to leave first leaving Try, Marzuki, and Edi to ponder what just happened.
“The United Kingdom confirming that it will assist financially if we want to buy the SEPECAT Jaguar as well as promising that the military equipment which they will no longer use as part of their defense restructuring can be made available to us if we want it…”, Edi said “Now that’s something.”
“Perhaps it’s not such a surprise given what we heard in Bahrain”, Marzuki said “If they want to make themselves useful to the United States without participating in Yugoslavia, then this is the way to do it and if we benefit from it, so much the better.”
Try was just glad to have the meeting with Brown over and done with for it meant that the G-8 Summit was coming to a close. The summit ended at lunchtime with a leaders’ communique, the suggestion to establish a forum for the major world economies, whether developed or emerging, getting top billing there. For Try, there was a quick meeting with President of France Alain Juppe to say his farewells and then it was across the border to Geneva, Switzerland to the Cointrin Airport, the Presidential Airplane and the flight back home to Jakarta.
---
In OTL, Germany’s Mig-29 went to Poland (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Mikoyan_MiG-29_operators#_Poland). In ITTL however, Poland got pissed Germany and Russia signed the agreement to make ITTL’s Nordstream I and cancelled the purchase of Mig-29 and instead got the 28 F-16s Indonesia interested in. Incidentally in OTL, Poland also was less than unhappy with Nordstream I (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2006/may/01/eu.poland).
The Second Sudanese Civil War and the events of Darfur being mentioned by Annan here.
Bung @Kosaki_MacTavish has a sharp nose, saying that the FPDA would become unworkable if Malaysia gets into China’s orbit. Here, the UK wants to nip things the bud but with the secret motive of remaining in the US’ good books despite not participating with Yugoslavia and wanting to elbow Australia out of the way and have the US’ ear once again.
Wonders of the Multipolar Moment
Well, well, how do he figured out Primakov's plan? (i forgot who told Try first about this, either Vajpayee, Khatami, or Primakov himself)
McCain and Luo Gan win if the world turns out to be a Bipolar one again.
And on the other side, Primakov would be the winner of the Multipolar moment, with Germany/France, China, Indonesia, India, Brazil, and other pole-aspirant tagging behind and getting the benefits of it rather than becoming members of the US-led bloc.
The 3rd person i waited for the most on this summit. (the 1st one has already passed, and the 2nd one hasn't yet)
Not everyone has their nationalism tied to a specific ethno/religious group, Mr. SecGen.
Marzuki coming in clutch as usual.
One step closer for energy self-sufficiency.
I guess he's rightly worried about the possibility the Malaysians would broke the Commonwealth's power there.
Realpolitiks.
Finally, kindred spirits.
Ahh, too bad no meeting with World Bank and the Greeks, or IMF and the Canucks for that matter. But at least the UK and Germans has positioned themselves pretty well in the Multipolar Moment.
Ah yeah, it begins again. Would be some time before Mubarak got involved in this one. And Gaddafi definitely would not, considering the recent developments in Chad.
The Aussies being paranoid as usual. And yeah, it's just a matter of time before the US-led bloc's interest comes into a collision course.
Yeah...the Aussies are paranoid for probably the wrong reasons...meanwhile, I guess the UK would be certainly concerned with the movements made by China...especially if the developments in Hong Kong are as IOTL.....
Again Aussie hawkish always make stupid decisions about Indonesia whether on this AU and OTL. Now we confirm British begin eyeing PRC as new threat.
Khatami at the 2003 D-8 Summit.
I think Primakov’s “plan” will be one of those things that leaders and intelligence agencies around the would speculate about if they're not directly involved. Try's concern is of course something else entirely...
About the Aussies' ITTL paranoia, there's an article here in 2008 which presents the following statistic:
and then there's...
from:
Indonesia fears fading but US a worry
The article says that OTL Aussies are less concerned but I'd say that's still pretty high and just among the general public.
For the purposes of the TL, I would say that if this is their stance to an Indonesia that's just fully recovered from the aftereffects of the Asian Financial Crisis, has been through a turbulent transition from authoritarianism to democracy and still before the MEF imagine what would be their stance to an Indonesia that is growing after the Asian Financial Crisis, is moving away from Soeharto but is still not a liberal democracy, and is just spending more on defense.
Darn it
Luckily Bali's charm toned it down for their touristy bunches.
Yup, keeping the Big Red stayed away from Nanyang.
I think it goes both ways as far as tourist and people-to-people ties are concerned. ITTL Rupiah being stronger, it's more affordable for Indonesian tourists to visit Australia.
But there'll certainly be more about this complicated (both ITTL and OTL) relationship.
question @GSD310, will ITTL Indonesia build trans-island highway outside Java? Railway? Since economically Indonesia doing much better than OTL, I expect the government build infrastructures decades earlier.
IIRC the Sumatran governors are currently coordinating and conducting feasibility studies for the Trans-Sumatra Toll Road, although there are a few airport/port-city highways scattered around Sumatra (excluding Jambi, Bengkulu, and Aceh), Sulawesi (only South and North), and Kalimantan (only West and East). For other trans-islands highway, no concrete plans for the Eighth REPELITA (April 2003 - April 2008).
Yeah...53 percent IOTL...yeah from the looks of it, I would be surprised if the number could somehow reach a number below 65 percent ITTL I guess...?Khatami at the 2003 D-8 Summit.
I think Primakov’s “plan” will be one of those things that leaders and intelligence agencies around the would speculate about if they're not directly involved. Try's concern is of course something else entirely...
About the Aussies' ITTL paranoia, there's an article here in 2008 which presents the following statistic:
and then there's...
from:
Indonesia fears fading but US a worry
www.smh.com.au
The article says that OTL Aussies are less concerned but I'd say that's still pretty high and just among the general public.
For the purposes of the TL, I would say that if this is their stance to an Indonesia that's just fully recovered from the aftereffects of the Asian Financial Crisis, has been through a turbulent transition from authoritarianism to democracy and still before the MEF imagine what would be their stance to an Indonesia that is growing after the Asian Financial Crisis, is moving away from Soeharto but is still not a liberal democracy, and is just spending more on defense.
Huh...I thought that would be the work of the minister from the central government....(considering there is less decentralization ITTL)....
Well, i wrote that on top of my head, let's see the past developments, then.
So, after a lot of snippings, it's a mutual effort from both sides. Trans-Sumatra Toll Road is the real test for the corresponding governors to uphold their commitment for national development in exchange of the autonomy given to the provinces (instead of more to the cities and regencies IOTL) as one of the results of “Conference on Central-Provincial Governments Relations” at May 1999. The Central Government provided funding and technical assistance as usual, but the Provincial Governments would provide on the necessary land-clearings (this one is my guess) and additional fundings.
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At the moment, there’s no reason not to. But basically all of the infrastructure that has been completed and inaugurated ITTL are completed years before the OTL version.
It's probably more accurate to call it deconcentration rather decentralization. It's a delegation rather than a handover of decisionmaking autonomy with the ability for the central government to take back that autonomy if required.