PC: Earlier ( Paper + Blast Furnace ) in Europe = Earlier Printing Press?

[John Fredrick Parker]

Both paper and pig iron were invented very early in China, circa the Second Century CE, but were unknown in Europe until the High Middle Ages (earliest indications being the 11th and 12th centuries, respectively); it was after a few centuries of having both these things, and seeing them spread within, that Europe developed movable type printing.

What if both of these technologies came to the West significantly earlier than OTL -- just as an example, say they manage to be introduced during the Third Century and become fairly widespread by late antiquity -- would this be enough to likely move up the invention of printing by a similar significant degree?

CONSOLIDATE: Independently of how it may or may not move up printing -- how would Europe developing paper making and/or blast furnaces several centuries earlier than OTL affect its development?

Related way of looking at the OP -- OTL, the printing press exploded into being around the same time as the Age of Exploration was getting underway, and about a century after gunpowder weapons had made their way to Europe; that it to say, the Rise of Printing itself happened within a particular socio-technological context. How might the impact of increased literary output have been different if it had happened in a different kind of context, say centuries before the arrival of gunpowder or the invention of the caravel?

 

[Huneric-senpai]

It depends on how early they get there.
12th century Kind of early.
10th? 6th?
sticking to paper, If its early enough, it could affect the way armies and scholars work and organise, The reason so little literature survived was due to the rarity of paper, which made the copying of books rare, and the destruction of even one copy Devastating.
A good place for the Earliest paper would be the same time as China, I'll leave someone more knowledgeable to talk about this.
YOu could have it after the fall, But that makes it hard with all the wars and things going on in the 6th century,
Vandals or Visigoths maybe? North Africa had textiles and pottery for a bit, and the making of paper required good knowledge of both for resources and skills, did they have any trees?
The same goes doubly for the Byzantines, So they are a big contender.
One of the major effects would be on scholarly pursuits.
Suddenly books are far easier to make as long as you have labour, and you could teach a lot of people about a lot of stuff, Very quickly.
The culture of the medieval era would be very different, I'll tell you that much, The bible might have been translated earlier.

 

[Jürgen]

Paper making until the 19th made primarily use of textile, the best textile for paper making was from old clothing. Modern paper money still use textiles as it create more robust paper.

A black furnace is not very technological complex and spread fast across Europe as it was introduced.

The introduction of these two technologies would be pretty radical, paper would create a far more literate society with much more being written down. I don’t expect that it will save the Roman Empire, but it will keep far more Roman and Greek literature around.

The blast furnace will be more radical, it will likely strengthen the Germanic tribes as they expand their iron and steel production, bit it will also push the expansion of the heavy plough enable far greater population on the North European plains, this may at first look bad for the Romans, but in all likelihood it could enable the Germanic people to beat the Huns, and instead of OTL large scale migration period, we could instead see Alemannic style invasion of the Roman empire where only border provinces are taken over by the Germanic invaders.

 

[John Fredrick Parker]

12th century Kind of early.
10th? 6th?

OTL, paper-making came to Europe in the 11th Century, and blast furnaces in the 12th; so in order for "both" to arrive "centuries before OTL", we'd have to have both by the 9th Century at the latest; preferably though, I'd like to talk about earlier scenarios, since I expect there's more potential there.

 

[John Fredrick Parker]

Here’s a scenario - - a Western PoD in the First Century CE leads to the Roman Empire making contact with the Han around the dawn of the Second Century; since this is around the time paper is being invented in China OTL, the first technology to travel west would be blast furnaces, and the Romans start to make their own pot iron in the mid Second Century. OTL, China is using paper for writing by the end of said century; so it would t be until the Third Century, at the earliest, that a Roman would even see paper being used this way. Even so, I could see a “Roman Printing Press” becoming a thing by the mid Fourth Century, TTL.

What do you guys think?

 

[Jürgen]

Here’s a scenario - - a Western PoD in the First Century CE leads to the Roman Empire making contact with the Han around the dawn of the Second Century; since this is around the time paper is being invented in China OTL, the first technology to travel west would be blast furnaces, and the Romans start to make their own pot iron in the mid Second Century. OTL, China is using paper for writing by the end of said century; so it would t be until the Third Century, at the earliest, that a Roman would even see paper being used this way. Even so, I could see a “Roman Printing Press” becoming a thing by the mid Fourth Century, TTL.

What do you guys think?

It took 300 year for medieval Europe to adopt printing presses and it was a far more literate society.

 

[John Fredrick Parker]

It took 300 year for medieval Europe to adopt printing presses and it was a far more literate society.

First, apologies, got numbers mixed up there -- absolute earliest, by my original logic, would actually be the mid fifth century. Second, you are right about lower literacy also making a difference, of which writing paper (not metal working) would be the more important invention to remedy.

So really, the Sixth Century is the absolute earliest, except that the Roman World is going to suffer a civilizational crisis by then, even in the most optimistic scenario; so realistically, the late Seventh to mid Eighth Century would be the early side of what we’re talking about here.

 

[Jürgen]

First, apologies, got numbers mixed up there -- absolute earliest, by my original logic, would actually be the mid fifth century. Second, you are right about lower literacy also making a difference, of which writing paper (not metal working) would be the more impoinvention to remedy.

So really, the Sixth Century is the absolute earliest, except that the Roman World is going to suffer a civilizational crisis by then, even in the most optimistic scenario; so realistically, the late Seventh to mid Eighth Century would be the early side of what we’re talking about here.

Paper will likely spread to the Germanic tribes, they may decides to write down more complex stuff (pretty much creating an earlier and more widespread version of the Icelandic sagas).

 

[John Fredrick Parker]

Paper making spreading earlier I wonder what the impact would be

Quoting here, also to note that @PecuTheGreat brought up an interesting idea for a PoD during the reign of Justinian.

 

[Yeiro]

Paper will likely spread to the Germanic tribes, they may decides to write down more complex stuff (pretty much creating an earlier and more widespread version of the Icelandic sagas).

that is a fascinating idea, this also would mean more about germanic culture would be known and this can expand to other peoples like the balts and slavs

 

[Nuraghe]

First, apologies, got numbers mixed up there -- absolute earliest, by my original logic, would actually be the mid fifth century. Second, you are right about lower literacy also making a difference, of which writing paper (not metal working) would be the more important invention to remedy.

So really, the Sixth Century is the absolute earliest, except that the Roman World is going to suffer a civilizational crisis by then, even in the most optimistic scenario; so realistically, the late Seventh to mid Eighth Century would be the early side of what we’re talking about here.

I would say that this ability would remain mainly known and used on a large scale by quite powerful and influential states, so the main candidates would obviously be Byzantium, a surviving Ostrogothic Italy and later Frankia ( followed by the papacy, which was already quite rich and powerful in this period historically speaking, given that a pontiff literally took the trouble to excommunicate Justinian without any awe ), this in turn will influence the communication skills of the subjugated peoples potentates, facilitating the spread of reading in Europe, mainly/exclusively in Latin, considered for practical and prestige reasons the language of the learned, also favoring the first birth of bureaucracy in both the state and ecclesiastical spheres, as well as simplifying the process of assimilation and homologation of languages and cultures, which will drastically change the political landscape of Europe in the early Middle Ages

 

[PecuTheGreat]

Paper will likely spread to the Germanic tribes, they may decides to write down more complex stuff (pretty much creating an earlier and more widespread version of the Icelandic sagas).

I really do doubt for like a collection like Snorr's existing early because it seems to me the motives and literary tradition that resulted in it isn't just more access to paper but the Christian-European literary tradition in full.

I think we will just get more of what was already being recorded on stone and through it better inferences on Norse religion in the modern day. Like fully elaborate versions of the expeditions to the Caspian or Bjarmaland.